Podcast
In this episode of Get Reworked, we talk to Shaelyn Otikor-Miller, SVP and head of global digital workplace strategy at Northern Trust Asset Servicing to discuss its thriving citizen developer program and her long-term vision for the program.
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"I think that's the one thing in the citizen development community, I probably struggle with is the mindset shift. Right? In the past, we had the formal training, we had the communications and newsletters, everything got pushed out to someone, you're required to take training, or you get locked out of your system or something," said Shaelyn.
"With these tools, it is all about the individual. And that's what I love, right? So it doesn't matter. It helps diversity, it helps equality. It helps just reskilling, upskilling staff want to shine and get more exposure and visibility, the only thing driving it is their own willingness to learn and dig in and be self starters."
Highlights of the conversation include:
- How the citizen developer program first came into being.
- Why citizen development requires a change in mindset.
- How she's built the program using a hub and spoke model.
- How citizen development feeds upskilling and reskilling efforts.
- Where employees find value in citizen development, beyond low-code process fixes.
Plus, co-hosts Siobhan Fagan and Kate Cox talk with Shaelyn about generative AI, why citizen development is nothing new and how generational differences help feed the demand for low-code platforms. Listen in for more.
Have a suggestion, comment or topic for a future episode? Drop us a line at [email protected].
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Show Notes
- Shaelyn on LinkedIn
- Northern Trust Asset Servicing
- Reworked's Low-Code Development Channel
Episode Transcript
Note: This transcript has been edited for space and clarity.
Shaelyn Otikor-Miller We still have a lot of individuals who are looking to be handheld, you know, hey, can you hold my hand? Can you teach me this? This is not that era, the technology is moving so fast, you have to dig in and teach yourself.
Siobhan Fagan: All of us are dealing with so many different platforms. And it is up to us to solve our own problems, which brings in low-code development platforms. They are here to help us automate workflows and help employees take back their own days, which is why we brought on Shaeyln Otikor-Miller.
Kate Cox: Shaelyn's an SVP and head of global digital workplace strategy with Northern Trust in their asset servicing business unit, which has about 15,000 of the company's 24,000 employees across 20 countries. That's a lot of people who are learning to wrangle their tech.
Siobhan: I'm Siobhan Fagan.
Kate: And I'm Kate Cox.
Siobhan: Let's Get Reworked.
Welcome to the podcast Shaelyn!
Shaelyn: Thank you so much, Siobhan. I'm happy to be here today.
Siobhan: Well, we are really excited to have you here to talk about citizen developers at Northern Trust.
But before we dive into that topic, we just wanted to hear a little bit about your role in your position at Northern Trust.
Shaelyn: So I'm head of global digital workplace strategy for asset servicing segment in Northern Trust. So asset servicing is about 70% of the company, we have 15,000 employees in 20 countries, we're responsible for servicing asset managers and asset owners across the financial services.
So we're kind of back to front-office outsourcing of their operation and technology. So when they outsource to us, we become part of their office, right. So my job is to make sure the employee digital experience is efficient, seamless, and that they're able to communicate and collaborate with our clients through a very robust interconnectivity model.
So you know, nowadays, everyone wants to communicate through whatever they choose. There's so many apps and portals and meetings and boards, right. And so our clients, some want to chat with our employees, some want to email, some want to go to a website, some want to plug in other workflow type of tools and connections. So my job is to make sure that we're able to customize our omnichannels for our clients.
But on the employee side, what does that employee experience look like? We don't want them to pivot between 20 different applications, right? We want them to have one portal, one pane of glass where we can bring all the client queries, requests or questions into that one platform.
So my job is to stand up that platform, we're leveraging Microsoft Dynamics as the core for our CRM and workflow and then building it out with other omnichannel type of connectors.
Helping Citizen Developers Help Themselves
Siobhan: I love that you're talking about customization. And you're also talking about juggling all these different platforms. And yet at the same time, we're here to talk about citizen developers, which sort of brings in new things. Right. So can you talk a little bit about the thinking behind this citizen developer team that you launched? And just give us some background about that?
Shaelyn: It's funny, because when you talk about citizen developers, it's really not a new concept, right? It's Shadow IT right? That was the bad word for it, Shadow IT, oh my god, they're in the shadows doing something no, no, that it shouldn't be doing, or they're in user computing.
So the first citizen developers were those that wrote Excel macros, right. And you know, it's the running joke across the financial industry, that no matter how sophisticated we've gotten, the whole financial industry is still held up by all these Excel macros, that people have just went out there and developed to automate calculations and other reporting.
So that was the origination of citizen development when you think about it, or maybe not even the first original agent. But that was the big thing. So the problem with Excel macros, of course, or as a company, you got 500,000 of them. And they're uncontrolled, it's hard to get a grip on who created an Excel macro. With all this new technology that has been rolled out specifically, as we're using the Microsoft suite. There's Power Platform, Power BI, Power Flow, Power Apps, they started to create all this technology that is easy for anybody, regardless if their tech savvy or not to learn how to use it, and automate their day to day tasks.
So say, for example, Siobhan. You come in in the morning, and you're just like, God, I'm drowning in this one email every morning. Every morning.
Siobhan: I have no idea what you're talking about Shaelyn.
Shaelyn: Every morning, this team sends me 100 reports in an email, why do you keep doing that, right? So these tools allow someone like you to just say, All right, I could go out to this site with a couple of YouTube videos, some really easy technology and learn how to create a flow to take all those emails and route them to a folder so I never need to see him again. Or maybe I need to take all of those and send them to my team to action.
So it's about having people who just have pain points day to day, and learning how to use technology to automate time consuming manual tasks and make a better day for themselves and for their clients. And so our employees obviously, are the ones that understand our clients the best, right? They talk to them every single day all day, because we are a part of their office, if they execute a trade, if they have a corporate action, we're part of that dialogue, it's not something we get handed to, where they're talking to them all day, every day.
So as our partners see, and we call our employees partners, as they see these little pain points, we want to put more capabilities into their hands to solve for these lower pain points quickly. So they don't have to send the request to the IT organization and follow along software development lifecycle and spend 12 to 18 months and millions of dollars to fix something that they can just, with a couple of tweaks in the right capabilities, they're able to fix in no time, probably a couple of hours, if not a week.
Closing the Gap Between Need and Solution
Kate: So it sounds in a sense, like this is almost an attempt to sort of organize and codify and corral a process that you might have seen in place anyway, right? You were saying all the Excel macros, this is sort of going back to a time before you had to put in a requisition for literally everything, you know, 20 years ago?
Shaelyn: Exactly, you know, we had a team that onboarded to our workflow. And we did not know they were getting like 70,000 emails a month. And I was just like, oh my god, how do you meet? How do you survive with that value of email coming into this mailbox. And we found out it was just reports, things that they didn't really need, but they needed a place to store them.
So we said, OK, we don't have to go to it and fix this, we don't have to go to the client, and talk to them about their business process and change anything on their side, we're going to show you a couple of easy Microsoft power flows, automation tools. And this is how you take those 70,000 emails, route them to a SharePoint site, you can store them, you can archive search, so you're still validating all your regulatory requirements without impacting the client. And now your mailbox is 70,000 emails lighter.
And so they learned that and so now they're able to take that knowledge to all the pain points across their groups, and kind of reapply that over and over again and teach others.
So it's great that people without the technology are able to do things like that.
Siobhan: So Shaeyln, I'm listening to you and I'm horrified by the idea of 70,000 emails showing up in my hand. But once I move past that, it sounds as if this is all basically an approach to help individual productivity as opposed to solutions that you're planning on scaling across the organization. Is that the case?
Shaelyn: Correct. It's more about individual productivity, individual team functions, regions, even you know, when you think about citizen developer tools, they're definitely at the low complexity end of the totem pole, there are the things you don't want to bother it about, it should be focused on more complex infrastructure, architectural designs and configurations.
So these are the things you would expect probably no more than 20 to 50 people in a team to leverage, to automate some process or flow.
A Self-Selecting Membership
Siobhan: Is this whole program open to anyone, like anyone who's stuck with those 70,000 emails? Or is there some kind of vetting process before somebody can create these tools?
Shaelyn: No, you know, I would say once upon a time, I attempted the vetting process, right. And then I realized I said, Actually, we want as many people as possible, I don't care if you're not tech savvy, and you want to become tech savvy, you know, in this environment in industry, we want people to upskill themselves and reskill themselves.
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So anybody who raises their hand and says, I haven't a clue how to deal with this, but I want to join your community, I want to join the forums, I want to take the training. Absolutely. Please come to the table.
Kate: I'm actually curious how many people are showing interest is this is like half the company, third of the company. You know, I'm really curious what the reception has been?
Shaelyn: Yeah. So right now, I would say we kind of started this program before COVID, which is the most interesting thing. And you know, so those of us who have been part of it for a while we kind of laugh. So we we've had some of these more cutting edge tools since 2018, 2019. Right before COVID. And you guys will laugh when I first started taking on digital workplace tools. My first call was with Zoom. Right? And they were trying to talk to me about the Zoom platform in Northern Trust. And this was the 2019 before COVID and I got on the call. And it was my first kind of video call. And I was just like, why am I the only one without a video?
Kate: That's amazing.
Shaelyn: And I contacted my boss and I said, you know, I think I need a webcam if I'm gonna keep pushing this. And so and so that's how it started.
And so I started by just asking partners who wanted to be tech champs, we were moving into our new location in Chicago and had a lot of new conference room technology. We were doing laptop, open office, your desk. And so we needed tech champs tech savvy partners, employees who just want to help lead the adoption of all the new conference tools and workplace tools. So we started there.
So these partners just stepped up, they wanted to learn the technology first, they were willing to teach others and help with adoption. So that's kind of where it started just finding people who are just passionate and interested to start taking that lead. And it helped.
So we started with maybe I say about 200 or so because we were moving 2,500. So we had a, you know, a rough ratio, so that they could come in and help employees as they started on their first day in the new office.
And then from that, it just continues to expand. Right now I would say I have three kind of sub-communities, I have my fintech leaders globally, there are about 300 of the total 15,000 In my business group. So these are 300 of the tech savvy leaders who stay plugged in understand what's coming, feed information back up, we have about 250 Power Platform, citizen developers who are a bit more tech savvy, want to get to know the new tools, developing flows and apps.
And then we have starting with Microsoft Dynamics. Now, I have about 250 super users who are dedicated to that platform.
So all the three groups have their own group of digital tools and technology they're focused on. So collectively, I'm about 750, to maybe 900.
All Generations Bring Something to the Table
Siobhan: Shaelyn, I'm curious with these people who are involved in these three different groups, this is just one small part of their role as like, it's something that they're taking on, on top of their individual contributions in the company, or am I reading this wrong?
Shaelyn: No, you're absolutely correct. These are people with day jobs and with their day job, they may have a pain point. And they're given an opportunity to learn something new on their own, and they love it. You know, everyone loves I mean, because when you think about the generation that's currently in the workplace, you know, we know in the past couple of years, you'd have these four or five generations, right?
You've had the baby boomers to Gen Zs. And it's just how do they talk and collaborate? You know, the baby boomer wants to pick up the phone and call, the millennial wants to reply with the chat. The baby boomer gets frustrated with the chat calls again, the millennials, like why did they keep calling me I don't know how to work my voicemail, right.
And so with this different level of generations in office, they do this on the outside anyway, when they're not at work. They're on social media, they're on gaming platforms. They're all on all these sites and tools and technologies and apps. So to be able to come into the office and have that same type of technology instead of the old infrastructure that's exciting to them, is something new that they can do, they can touch, and no one's holding them back. There's no formality to it. It's very informal, grassroots mentality, which this generation appreciates.
Siobhan: I love that you're getting them involved. I love that there's so many people who are excited about this program. And I'm wondering, because there's this sort of, I don't know, myth let's say, about low-code platforms, that it really requires absolutely no technical ability whatsoever.
But you're talking about training, you're talking about people learning how to work with these tools. Can you talk about that myth a little bit?
Shaelyn: Well, yeah, so every tool is different, right? Let's start there, there are some tools that are very easy to deal with. And you don't need any training, right, you can literally watch a 10-minute YouTube video, and go and connect, hey, I want my emails to route here. And that's a really easy one. There are some that are more complex, like Power BI or Python that do require a bit more training.
But the training is still not as rigorous as like when I went to school. And in my undergrad, I wanted to learn Java, right, I had to learn Java over two quarters, two semesters of ongoing training in how to code in Java. This technology doesn't require you to know how to code and that's the key there, right? You don't have to remember where you put your period, or your if/then statement or your do loop. You don't have to remember any of that. And you don't have to learn any coding language.
So it's really the training is more watching a video getting someone to give you a one-hour demo. So that example I gave earlier, for example, the person on my team, he taught the team leader of the business function, she had never used the technology. And he said, okay, you know, let's get on a call. I'll teach you how to connect this in route those emails somewhere else. They jumped on a call in in about an hour, he had taught her how to do it. Her first time, never used it before rerouted those emails. And now she could go out there and watch a couple of videos of how to connect things.
So it is pretty seamless. And now that they're rolling out the new AI capabilities, ChatGPT Copilot. I had a developer tell me that really it's so easy for the end user now, a developer would struggle to use some of this technology. that you don't need that much it knowledge.
Kate: You mentioned just a really cool example of somebody teaching somebody else, which is the ideal goal, right? You sort of spread this knowledge through the organization. Is there a way to spread it far? It seems like it's pretty easy to connect with somebody who is in your team, right? If there's 50 of you, or something, is there a way set up for teams that may not be working really closely together to sort of benefit from each other's knowledge here?
Shaelyn: Yeah. And that's actually the journey I'm currently on right, I'm looking to set up a hub and spoke model where the hub are those core leaders that I currently have, who've raised their hand dug in, right, so about, you know, 750ish, 800.
But then as we have that hub, where we come together as a community, to learn from one another, share best practices, do demos of what people have built, teach others, we then want to expand that to a hub and spoke right, so then each of those, so out of that total, say, 800, they then go and create spokes in their individual business groups, teams and regions around the world.
So the hub may meet every two months. But then after we meet, they go and lead perhaps 70 different spokes, or 50, or even 20. And then each of the spoke models, those are more people in their teams who may be further away from it, but do want to learn tidbits. So those other spokes, they just like to learn from each other. So that's kind of the model I've built out. And that I have layers. underneath me, I have my team leaders, my superusers, the tech champs and superstars who go and lead the spoke models with more general employees want to learn it as well.
A Squeaky Wheel Becomes a Passionate Advocate
Siobhan: The people who are immersed in the job usually see the solution that they need, or they see where they can improve a process best. But I'm wondering how they become aware of the capabilities that these platforms offer.
Shaelyn: Is pure communication. You know, it is interesting, Siobhan I think that's the one thing in the citizen development community, I probably struggle with is the mindset shift. Right? In the past, we had the formal training, we had the communications and newsletters, everything got pushed out to someone, you're required to take training, or you get locked out of your system or something.
With these tools, it is all about the individual. And that's what I love, right? So it doesn't matter. It helps diversity, it helps equality. It helps just reskilling, upskilling staff want to shine and get more exposure and visibility, the only thing driving it is their own willingness to learn and dig in and be self starters.
So yes, you know, we send out communications, we have the amber communities and team groups and newsletters and we do all of that. The superstars though the people who really shine are those who go beyond that and go out there and do it themselves. You know, they Google it, they YouTube it, they teach themselves, instead of waiting for us to always go to that one-on-one level, then two-on-one, then three-on-one level.
My team is a good example. So what I did, is standing up my new asset servicing digital workplace strategy team. I picked the people who I had worked with previously over these last couple of years, in one of my other forums, or groups or meeting, who just stood out, you know, one of the guys oh, you're gonna laugh. He got on my nerves on every call. Every call, he had 50 questions to ask me and what's this? And how can this and why can't we use that and call after call. And finally, I was like, oh, my God, this guy. He just knows too much for his own good. He should he should just come over here and help me.
And I reached out to him. And I said, How do I plug you in more? How do I? How do I leverage your your passion and your engagement to teach others. And sure enough, I brought him on board and he's loving it. He's knocking it out of the park, right? He's dug all into the Microsoft suite. He's optimizing. He's training people. And he's just passionate about it. And he's making other people passionate. And now he's gotten more exposure visibility, just by the pure nature of his own just initiative
Siobhan: Did he cut down on the calls and the questions after that?
Shaelyn: Well .... well, I made him someone else's problem. I told him and keep that passion keep pushing others who are not you know, there's always the laggards and the distractors. And so now he does help kind of push them forward. And then sometimes, you know, you have to pull people back to say, OK, you also have to keep in mind to go slow. You know, not everyone's there.
You know, we still have a lot of individuals who are looking to be handheld, you know, hey, can you hold my hand? Can you teach me this? This is not that era, the technology is moving so fast. You have to dig in and teach yourself, you know, on weekends, I'll sit and just watch videos of the new capabilities just to get a working knowledge of what they do. I'll do tests and demos myself and it's like if you're not willing to dig into it, you're just going to kind of be left behind because there's just too much going on for people to hold hands anymore.
Kate: This seems like a very much a pivot from here's how you can find where we can help you, right, like sort of traditional IT request model to, here's how you can learn how to help yourself.
Shaelyn: Yeah.
Kate: And are you seeing that, that attitudes sort of contagious is a strong word, but like, is it traveling through? Yeah, through the organization? Like is that are you seeing sort of a vibe pivot there with sort of how people look for help?
Shaelyn: Yeah, it's a slow trend. We're in financial services, so we're not manufacturing or consumer or something like that. We're a heavily heavily regulated industry.
So because we're so heavily regulated using public cloud technology, or just cloud technology and new citizen developer tools, it has been a challenge to get these approved at the company, making sure they're regulated and controlled. So that probably took up the bulk of the last year or two, just the approvals, the controls the security, now, we're really focused on getting people engaged.
Some people were more engaged than others. But because the technology wasn't fully approved and enabled, I think it slowed down some of the pace.
But now that it's there, it's live. It's about showing people what it could do. So we do road shows, we do a lot of demos. And it's fascinating how people will get off a call, like, oh, my God, I did not know I had that at my fingertips. I didn't know I could just go to this site, click a few buttons and make this, these emails go away, or to automatically save these files without manually clicking every single one of them. So it's little things like that.
So it is picking up. It is getting people over that fear that hey, I can do it too. Because you know, you do go into any technology like oh, my God, how much time is this going to take me to learn, and it doesn't take that long at all.
So we are seeing that pick up, we're trying to strengthen that momentum, we're looking to do like a hackathon, something exciting across the company or across our business unit, to really get people excited, and to see what the capabilities can really do.
Reskilling, 'Hidden Figures' Style
Siobhan: You've mentioned a couple of the results that you've seen come out, since you've rolled these out. And one of them being diversity. I'm wondering like what other impacts you have seen? And if any of them surprised you?
Shaelyn: Well, you know, I always go back to the movie Hidden Figures. Have you guys seen Hidden Figures where the women reskill themselves on the new IBM matrix?
Siobhan: Also great costumes, I'm just throwing that out there.
Shaelyn: I love that, right. But that's my focus. And that's what I see the biggest benefit right now.
You have staff shortages, you have turnover, you have hybrid workforce, you have people who don't want to come back into the office, they want to leave and take other roles are bored.
So you know, I have another member on my team, she was the technical expert on a legacy system, an older version of our workflow capabilities, you know, infrastructure, things like that. And so she was kind of a back office tech support type of person, you know, she helped with onboarding, knew the teams, the culture. And so when I was standing up this new team, I said, okay, do I want to hire externally with someone who knows this technology already, but I have to teach them the company, the culture, the people, the stakeholders, and we all know the people are the hardest part?
Or do I take someone who knows the stakeholders, the company, the culture and the people, and see if she's interested in reskilling her knowledge? So originally, they said, okay, we're going to get rid of these legacy systems. And then the people who are looking over those who were going to ramp them down, and I said, why on earth would we ramp them down? If they knew the legacy system, contextually, they have the knowledge of what it needs to do, they know that people in their business processes, if they just need to learn this new technology, let's just reskill and upskill them.
And so she's a prime example. She's a success story at our company, because she did just that she went from being in the back-office on the technical support desk. And now she reskilled, upskilled. She knows the new workflow capabilities better than anyone at the company, probably better than anyone if I would have hired them externally, with the added advantage that she knows the company and the culture too. So now she can just slice through things like I always say, like a shark through butter. She just got through, and I love it.
And so now I'm talking to HR. And we had to have a discussion, like this is a prime example of someone who took their skill set and moved it forward in a couple of months, by years, right? And now her capabilities and her resume would just shine in the marketplace.
Whereas in the previous thought process, you're like, OK, well they have this skill set. We need someone with this skill set. Let's go to market no, now we just retrain staff, and we're retaining engaged, passionate and loyal employees too.
The Elephant in the Room, Generative AI
Kate: So you mentioned a few minutes ago in passing ChatGPT and Copilot and obviously generative AI, literally everybody's talking about it right now, right.
Shaelyn: The computers are going to take over.
Kate: Yeah, literally my Lyft driver on the way home from our conference last month, like talked to me about generative AI for half and hour.
So you know, there are concerns that that is going to change the workplace change some roles, that seems like this program would be a really great chance to help some people sort of find new roles as the work around them changes.
Shaelyn: Exactly. And then technology changes. It's not even digital transformation, it's digital disruption is a complete overhaul of everything they're accustomed to working with different technology and skills.
So it definitely gives me plenty of time. You know, I hear AI yeah, I was at the conference. And I was just laughing. Because while we're at the conference, and people were worried about oh, AI, you know, and then same thing in the airport all the way home.
At the same time, someone on my team is trying to get the AI stood up. He's going back and forth with Microsoft, on Copilot. They I need to plug it in, I need to configure it. Now, we got it running. How do I use it? How do we make it work?
So AI is not just as seamless, like you still need to have some kind of working knowledge of citizen development, kind of low level technology to get it to work.
So I think there's still benefits to partners. I do think those who are reticent to change, reticent to upskilling and learning the new technology, or who are in manually processing roles are probably more at risk than just everyone. You know, it kind of feels like people are waiting to wake up one morning and the robots have taken over.
I see a slow kind of gradual shift to this technology over the next couple of years. And I think if people take the time to learn it and keep up with it, their skill set will stay fresher.
Siobhan: I love that you're laughing while you're saying, while the robots are taking over our jobs.
Shaelyn: Not to be insensitive, right. I have heard stories of people being impacted. There are true stories, you know, people being impacted. I saw someone who was a writer and she lost her role because AI wrote, you know, her did the writing for her again. But then people don't think okay, once AI did the writing, who check the sources of the AI, you know, who check the data that it access? Who made sure those sources of data were not politically incorrect or biased that didn't slant? You know, AI has its faults, too.
Siobhan: I can't believe you're saying that on something that was trained on the internet, which is full of, fact-based, loving and kind information.
Shaelyn: Oh, the internet is always accurate. I mean, I get all my information from Google.
Siobhan: Shaelyn, this has been great. I guess I just want to kind of close out by asking where you would ideally see this program go in the end?
Like, do you want to see it scale? Do you want to keep it small and tight? Like what's the ideal outcome for this program?
Bottom Line: It's All About Collaboration
Shaelyn: Yeah, so we're on a journey. And my ideal outcome is this is the catalyst to really upskilling and rescaling our whole kind of workforce, right, we need to take everyone into the future, we don't want to have to replace partners, we don't want them to leave the company, we want to retain them, we want to give them new cool tools that they can use in the company that feels like the cool tools they use outside the company, right?
We want them to, you know, we want them to stick around and leverage their business expertise, and learning this new technology. So ideally, I would like to see this scale up. So starting with the citizen developers are my my superusers, my adopters, the ones who are going to lead the way.
But ideally, I would like to see this expand across our whole business unit and the company, where everyone is just a bit more tech savvy, it makes work easier. You know, when you're using One Drive, for example, and I'm collaborating on a document, it doesn't work. If the other individuals don't want to collaborate on that document with me, they keep sending it in a copy because they're scared to open it up. Because oh my god, the words are shifting. While my words are shifting, like yes, we're both in it. Let's go.
So ideally, you want to spread it across your whole company. Because these tools are collaborative. That's the key. They are very collaborative, and they don't work well unless everyone's on the same page.
Kate: That is a fantastic note to end on. So I just like to ask Shaelyn, where can our listeners find you online to stay in touch with your work and learn more about it?
Shaelyn: The best place to find me at this moment is LinkedIn, Shaelyn Otikor-Miller, I accept just about all requests. I'm not picky. As things come about I share on LinkedIn.
Like I said, I'm in financial services. I don't have anything cool like a YouTube streaming page. I think that might require more legal and risk approvals, that I can achieve this year but we'll see what happens next year.
Siobhan: We're gonna follow up for that YouTube channel next year Shaelyn!
Shaelyn: I'm working on is Siobhan. I'm working on it.
Siobhan: Thank you so much, Shaelyn.
Shaelyn: Thank you guys. This has been fun I appreciate the invite.
Siobhan: If you have a suggestion or a topic for a future conversation, I'm all ears. Please drop me a line at [email protected]. Additionally, if you liked what you heard, post a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you may be listening. Please share Get Reworked with anyone you think might benefit from these types of conversations. Find us at reworked.co. And finally, follow us at Get Reworked on Twitter as well. Thank you again for exploring the revolution of work with me, and I'll see you next time.
