Podcast
In this episode of Get Reworked, Air Force enterprise change manager Heather Knuffke gives an inside look at what it takes to make change stick at the over 75-year-old institution.
Listen: Get Reworked Full Episode List
"When you have an organization that's this big, and you have commanders in charge of units across the Air Force, and each commander wants to manage their own organization in their own way, it's not so easy just to say turn around and march, right? .... So we believe strongly in delegating responsibility down. And so we try to give our commanders at bases and commanders of units as much authority over how they run their organization so that they can effectively lead when it comes to HR policy, and when it comes to talent management and promotions, and awards, and things like that. That's within the commander's purview," said Heather.
Highlights of the conversation include:
- Why you can't just order people to change.
- The emotional component that's part of any change management initiative.
- Why her role is as much about being a translator between IT and HR.
- How she prioritizes across a variety of competing demands.
- The two skills she thinks every change manager should possess.
Plus, host Siobhan Fagan talks with Heather about training a cadre of change managers throughout the Air Force, how she approaches the multiple stakeholders involved in the change initiatives and what it's like getting a PhD in change management while working in change management every day. Listen in for more.
Have a suggestion, comment or topic for a future episode? Send it to [email protected].
Tune-in Here
 |  |
Show Notes
- Heather on LinkedIn
Episode Transcript
Note: This transcript has been edited for space and clarity
Heather Knuffke: When it comes to change, it really does depend on whether that change is sticky. And if you want it to be sticky, it has to be reinforced at many levels. So you can't just change one person, you have to change the structure so that everybody is mutually reinforcing each other in the new change.
Siobhan Fagan: You just heard from Heather Knuffke. As the Air Force enterprise change manager, she leads the Air Force's efforts to build change capacity and change competency in airmen and guardians. She established the Air Force's first enterprise change management program in 2018, with resources nested in each major human resource organization in the Air Force.
During the time she has also trained over 150 Air Force organizational change management practitioners, and she regularly leads training and coaching programs for senior leaders, supervisors and program management teams.
If you haven't guessed by now, our topic today is change management. The Air Force is currently modernizing over 118 legacy systems and applications. And they are delivering these user experiences to an Air Force population of 750,000.
I can't wait to bring Heather on. So let's Get Reworked.
Siobhan: Welcome to the podcast Heather.
Heather: Thank you. I'm so glad to be here.
Siobhan: I am really excited for you to be here, and for you to share your story with our audience. I got a very small taste of it at our recent CONNECT Conference and I wanted to give you time to speak a little bit more in depth about it.
So just to start off, can you tell our audience what your role is and what exactly your day-to-day looks like?
A Typical Day for an Air Force Change Manager
Heather: Absolutely. So I work for the United States Air Force, that includes the Air Force and Space Force now. And I am the A1 enterprise change manager. And so I have a few different roles or few different hats I wear.
The first one is enterprise change management. And in that hat, I am trying to build a capacity across our Air Force and to some degree, the Space Force for managing change. So it's really about institutionalizing organizational change management across the force.
And then I have a second hat I wear, which is the portfolio change manager for digital transformation. So like many organizations across the world, we are going through a digital transformation in our entire human resource talent management sphere. We've got 118 different IT systems and applications in the HR portfolio. And so we try to manage the change across that wide audience.
Siobhan: I was actually laughing when you said that, like many other companies that you are going through this digital transformation, because I think the scale at which you're doing is not like any other companies. But sorry, you go on ...
Heather: I'm not the only one doing this work, we have a cadre across the Air Force that we're building up to manage this change. And that kind of gets into that third role, which is, I go and I establish OCM teams to support a change initiative.
So we might be changing a learning management system or an HR system or a CRM. And I would go in, try to assess the situation, build up a team on the ground to kind of handle it, and then pull back into that advise and assist role as that change rolls out.
So I don't have to do it all myself. There's a bunch of us.
Siobhan: That's lucky for you. We're gonna touch on the scale in a minute. But I'm just curious, where exactly does an enterprise change manager sit in an organization? What department are you in?
Heather: I'm at the intersection of HR and technology. So we have at the Pentagon, we have the A1 one, which is the Human Resources talent management world. And within that we have our Integration Office that manages the budget, our contracts and our technology. And I sit there. So I'm nominally under the active duty side of the house, but I also support the guard, the reserve, our civilians, our naf civilians.
Caught Between Two Roles: HR and Tech
Siobhan: So I'm curious, in that role in that in between roles, so you're kind of straddling HR and technology. Are you in any way acting as an intermediary between the two by chance?
Heather: Yes, in fact, we call it a translation problem. We have folks who can speak technology and we have folks who can speak to HR or speak talent management. And those folks aren't always the same.
So HR folks tend to be focused on policy and process and the human implication. Our technology folks tend to be focused on timeline, resources, cost, the technological regulations that govern us, and when the two get into the same room, a lot of times they talk past each other. So organizational change management, in that case, helps them communicate to each other. And where we usually find common ground is in the user experience.
So both our HR professionals and our IT professionals really want to provide a good experience to our airmen and our guardians, that's what we call our Space Force Service members. We want to provide that good experience. And one of the places we found that they can really communicate well to each other is in that language, through technology, then we can communicate the process for HR, we can communicate the needs of our airmen, and translate that into stories and code and technology that's delivered.
Siobhan: So just to kind of set the stage here, when you're talking about the user experience that you're delivering, how many people are you delivering this to? How is your digital transformation project? You already mentioned that it is over 100 projects. How is it different from say somebody rolling out a digital transformation project in an insurance company or something?
Heather: Well, we're different on a couple of different measures, we're different in size. So there's probably about 750,000 folks in the Air Force and Space Force community, right. So that's just a large organization.
And then when you think about, we don't just support the airman or the Guardian, we are supporting their families through our services, like MWR, Morale, Welfare and recreational services. We support our wounded warrior communities. So it's not just their families with their communities and their medical communities. So when you think of that group, it's a really diverse group with a lot of different needs, we'll get about one and a half million people that we think of as our customers. So we differ on size.
And we also different scope. So the Air Force, A1 is the home for manpower, personnel and services. So manpower is getting the right people in the right place with the right skills at the right time, right sizing the force. Personnel is all of your HR and talent management activity, we do hire fire retire, I think that's normal for most organizations. But we also do expire. We manage cemeteries and services.
We also have the whole professional development, we bring in airmen and guardians when they're 17 or 18 years old. And we manage them throughout their career. So we are doing teaching and competition for awards. And then we take care of their families, like I said, so we have bowling alleys in our portfolio, we have golf courses, and hotels and all of the schools. So the scope is very, very broad.
And then one other part about that scope is, it's not just an airman that we're trying to take care of. When we think of any one of these processes. We have to think of it along the lines of all the different types of airmen and guardians we serve. So we have enlisted, we have officers, we have reserve officers, we have guard officers, we have civilians, we have another type of civilians called naff, we have contractors that we manage. We have folks that go back and forth between those different roles. We have our retirees, and then again, our military families, the medical community, there's so many different types of people in the A1 in we started with a separate process for each one of those a separate hiring process, separate firing process. So the complexity is just really big. That's how we get to this 118 or 120 different systems.
Siobhan: Yeah. And so when you're talking about these systems, because you're currently trying to move to the cloud, is that correct?
Conference
Sep
16
HR Tech Conference Las Vegas 2025
Register
Conference
Oct
27
Gartner HR Symposium/Xpo Orlando 2025
Register
Heather: Yes, ma'am. all over the place. We're moving to the we're in the cloud in a lot of places.
The Government's Long History With Technology
Siobhan: But you're working with these legacy systems that again, are a little bit different than what a lot of other organizations might think of in terms of legacy systems. Can you talk a little bit to that point?
Heather: if you think about the government, writ large, we are just different from corporate or even nonprofit organizations. And part of that is because of our long history with technology.
So in the 1950s, all the way to the 1970s, if you wanted to work in technology, if you wanted to work with computers, you went to go work for the government, that was the cutting edge. It's not that way anymore, right. Now, the competitive market has surpassed our ability to spend all of our money developing and securing technology. So we took all these wonderful computer scientists and computer programmers. They're all across the Air Force. And everywhere we planted them. They built wonderful, detailed, mission specific organization specific IT programs. And those programs were built and tailored directly to the needs of the people in that organization.
And so, while they did a really great job, the legacy of it, is it locked in our processes. So the process we had in 1970 for onboarding, a new recruit into the Air Force Academy got crystallized and it becomes more and more difficult to change those processes as time goes on. Because we just layer in more and more homegrown technology.
So all across the Air Force all across DOD, really, the need to break these systems that are crystallizing our organizational processes and unlocking in our data, we need to break them on a grand scale. So when we change a little bit here, we actually have to hard break the links, the data transfer links and the way we communicate and work with other organizations, several points down the line.
And that's when you get to this idea of digital transformation, we can't just change one piece, we have to change it all. It's a cultural change.
Cultural Change: Where to Start
Siobhan: I am honestly happy to hear that you get to train all these organizational change managers throughout the organization. Because this sounds like such a daunting project, honestly, I'm sitting here and I'm thinking of all the moving parts, I'm thinking of all of the data of the sort of security of the data and having to change it from one to another.
So when you're looking at a project of this scale, with this many stakeholders, how do you decide where to start?
Heather: That's a good question. One of the things we look at is where does Congress tell us to start. It's often where we have the most complaining or the largest pain points. So if we have a system that's impacting pay, and our airmen can't get paid, or they can't promote on time, our community knows how to call their congressman, or congresswoman. And so sometimes it's Congress that tells us when to change. That is how the Air Force decides some of its it decisions.
Other ones or we actually get to make based on strategy, whereas it makes sense to change first. But that doesn't mean where do I work for so my job is organizational change. We're changing all across that portfolio. And we don't have trained support, sitting around waiting for a job to be called on. So a lot of these change initiatives get going. And it's only when they hit major resistance, that someone decides to call to headquarters and say, Hey, we need help down here. And then me or someone on my team would go out, assess the situation, help train up some change managers, help train the leadership and get going.
So we tend to go to the noisiest to those who are suffering the most. But that wouldn't be the advice that I would give to an organization. I would, if you're just starting an organizational change management program in your office, in your organization, I would advise you to start where your senior leaders are most interested. So whatever that pet project is, whatever is getting time and attention on on the senior leaders calendar, go there, start small, don't try to implement change across the whole organization.
When they hired me in the Air Force in 2018, they wanted me just to fix everything. We had change issues everywhere. And it's not practical. You have to pick up small projects, one that you can sequence or time well, so you can support them, and dive in there, show that change management is successful. And that'll get you the platform to stand on to say, hey, I need more resources. I want to train more people to do what I do. We need this as an institutional capacity.
Change Management Starts and Sputters
Siobhan: Do you have an example of one of those projects that you set up with that approach?
Heather: So I'm laughing because there's so many projects out there where change management starts and sputters and starts and sputters. And then it really becomes an issue when the sponsor starts to feel the pain.
You know, the old saying, some people see the lights and people feel the heat. And for a lot of our senior leaders, it's not until they feel the heat and that helps direct which projects get supported. When I came on to the A1 in 2018, before that, I worked at the Air Force Academy. When I came on up to headquarters to build this institutional level program, I had a whole bunch of projects approached me all at once and asked for help. And you can't go to the senior leader and list out 40 projects and say, this is what I'm going to work on. The senior leaders have their own agenda.
So I brought those 40 projects. And I asked them, what was top of mind for them? And they usually talk about where they're feeling the heat, you know, where are they getting pressure from senior leadership? Where are they getting pressure from subordinate folks? And I always end those meeting with if I could do one thing for you today, what is it? And that tells you, whatever their answer is, that tells you where the priority is, whether it's the number one on their list or not. And so I start there.
I built a project plan to institutionalize OCM. But I split my time between building up a support structure because I know I couldn't do this all by myself, and whatever was causing the most heat for the senior leadership.
The Pitfalls of Working While Pursuing a PhD
Siobhan: So I know that on top of all of your regular work duties, you're also a PhD student. And you are studying specifically the organizational performance learning and change and the human experience with technology, which I find kind of interesting. It's like one of those chicken egg questions which came first, the PhD or your role, I'm assuming your role came first. And then the PhD followed?
Heather: You know, this isn't my first attempt at a PhD. I started a PhD program in 2010. And I got all the way through the coursework, and I passed the comprehensive exams, and I passed the oral exams. And then all I had to do was write a dissertation. And life got in the way couple of deployments by the husband and kids and jobs and moving and all of that, and I didn't finish the degree.
So even as I was in this type of work, I knew I would be going back. And when I found a program that matched what I was doing at work, those two kind of synergized together, but a word of warning, if your organization is on fire, which mine often was, with all this change, and your job is to manage that change at work, and then go home and go do schoolwork and you gotta write all about work at school, you really have no escape. So I'm not sure it was the best decision to get a PhD in managing change, and then do managing change all day long too, little rough.
Siobhan: So you're not necessarily recommending this path.
I did want to set up that background too, though, before I asked the next question, because I know that your studies are informing your work and your work is informing your studies. You and I had a chance to speak before this podcast recording and you were talking about a theory of change management that you had, which I found really interesting, and I was hoping you could go into for our audience, which is how change management affects stakeholder groups across the entire change lifecycle and how you've identified these different changes that people go through?
The Change Management Lifecycle
Heather: Well, thanks for asking that question, because it is really close to my heart. And I'm very interested in it. And it consumes most of my thinking.
So as I look across the lifecycle of an IT project, right, you start off with, there's some new ideas, some innovation, some great start. And wherever that innovation is starting, it's often replacing something that was a problem.
So there's our first stakeholder group that is really important in managing organizational change. It's the legacy project managers. So I talked about how in the Air Force and in DOD writ large. We have project managers that have been managing and caring for organizations through these legacy IT systems. And they are tailored and specific to the organizational need. But they are also those program managers, they're also the folks that say no, a lot. They say no, the system can't do that. No, we don't have the resources for doing it. No, that's not secure. No, you can't plug that into my system. You become this like Office of No. And our senior leaders get frustrated with that. And they start to push back on the project managers. And what often happens is some plucky salesman comes along and says, well, I can solve all those problems. Just roll out my new CRM and just roll out my new ERP or Enterprise Resource Platform, and we'll solve all your problems and our project managers. They're like, oh, great, I would love to have new technology, but it won't work for us. It can't do all the things that I've made this technology do. And so again, they're seen as that person of no, senior leaders for sure hear the word no all the time coming out of their mouths. But really what they're speaking is, is wisdom. They know what our organization wants, because they deal in our requirements all day long. They know what our organization is capable of. And they know the processes that we used to get there. And there's just no platform out there, that is identical to what I need, whether I'm at the Air Force Academy, or the A1 for center for Army analysis where I used to work, they don't come off the shelf look, and just like our organization, they're going to need to be changed.
So our legacy platform managers have all this wisdom and knowledge. But so often, they're told to stay out of the conversation, because they could just keep pointing out all the problems. And so you have this risk that the organization takes when they tell that project manager, hey, you can't be in the meeting, because all you've done is disrupt and say no, and point out is not going, you're groaning, you're rolling your eyes, you're sitting there with your arms crossed, you've got the wrong idea and the wrong mentality, and I think you should stay back in the office while we manage this. And then you lose that knowledge is that wisdom, you lose the connections, and we roll out technology. And it can do all these things. The great organization said it could do or the great salesman said it could do, but they don't match our needs.
And we get behind on our delivery project, a promise delivery of six months turns into two years. And that project manager if they haven't already found another job, where they feel welcome, is saying, See, I told ya. So that's just one of those stakeholder groups that I think kind of gets the wrong end, when we go through digital transformation.
We have two other stakeholder groups that, at least in my mind, have really crystallized to be a part of this digital transformation. So the second group then is this whole new set of developers, the software developers, they're using Agile or Scrum or some of these new iterative methods for developing technology. As a group, they are often much younger than our legacy project managers. And they come in and their experience is, or their role in the organization is very different, they have this can do attitude, and let's try attitude. And maybe I can make it work this way attitude. And so their identity gets really caught up in how far can I take this machine?
I tend to think of like, Star Wars, you know, like, how far can I push my technology to deliver and those circles of developers tend to be in a more competitive but also collaborative environment. It's very charismatic. It's a lot like the Wild West, some of those agile technologies, they focus on things like delivering capability over documentation, right? It helps breeds this, this identity of that cowboy, and what can I get done.
But then the experience becomes, wait a minute, this is too much responsibility, and I can't satisfy everyone's needs all at once. And there's this pushback, they need to standardize, they need to professionalize their experience. And so they're going through their sort of lifecycle of I can do anything, I can't do that that's too much. Well, maybe if I put in some roles and responsibilities and practices, and then the third group of the deployers of the new system, these are our frontline customers who are actually using the tool.
So if you want to move to another base, for example, you need to go and talk to our frontline HR providers, customer support staff or personnelists. And they will take that technology and translate it into whatever need you have. Right. This is where we get to that HR, IT language. These frontline HR professionals, they're actually the expert. And they have a role to do they have tasks, they have books that they follow. And if you come in and change the technology and you don't manage that change, well, you deteriorate their ability to do these things. It deteriorate their ability to be a subject matter expert and the policy and the process. It may deteriorate their ability to help.
And so when I look at managing change across the lifecycle, I'm looking at managing that original group, the legacy PM to make sure we don't lose that institutional knowledge and all that wisdom. I'm looking at my new developers and thinking about how they're integrating together and integrating with business and whether or not they're establishing predictable roles and responsibilities and standardization so that they can keep up this initial burst of work.
And then I'm looking at the folks who are deploying the technology, do they have the ability and the knowledge to use the new system to do their job, because they are the interface with the airmen and the guardians or the family members or the community.
Change Management Can Be Very Personal
Siobhan: Heather, when I listened to you, it sounds so much like, what you're describing, and what most people think of as sort of a process and very much involved in technology, people have their personal identity caught up in these technologies and in these processes. And I'm wondering, when you are training these other organizational change managers, are you teaching that kind of awareness of the emotional connection to change management?
Heather: Absolutely, yes. And, you know, we rely heavily on Prosci methodology, and we integrate the experience that we have across the Air Force of doing continuous process improvement, and human-centered design. And so we've got a few different philosophies coming in.
And when I teach this part of the class, I asked them to think about the current state, the transition state and the future state. And I talk about how our senior leaders live in that future state, right, they're talking about how great the technology is going to be how great the experience is going to be all the organizational outcomes we're going to get. And when they're talking to the impacted organization, they're not so worried about the future state, they're worried about their current state, or if they're a manager of some type, that transition state.
So like our frontline service providers, they are in the current state, they have their current job to do, they have their current crises, whatever those might be. And then we're gonna go and change their technology. So we're doubling their work, they are living squarely there. And when we talk to them it isn't helpful to talk about how wonderful that future state is going to be. That isn't what motivates them. What motivates them is that that identity that's caught up in that technology.
This leads to a voice of the airman panel, and the voice of the airmen panel is I went to around the Air Force, and I did a couple panels of volunteers of frontline service providers, and I put them on this conference we do, we did conference three times a year to talk about all the different changes in the Air Force. And normally, they are the customers, right? They're the ones that are listening to the project managers talk about all the different changes that are coming. But I bring some of them on stage to talk back to the technologists and the policymakers and the senior leaders to talk about what that experience is like, of implementing this new technology.
And when we did those panels, two things really jumped out. One they identify as a subject matter expert, they, and they alone, can make these IT systems work for the organization. They and they alone are the expert on the policies. It's very complex policies that we have for promoting retiring, separating, changing duty station, they are the subject matter experts.
And then their second identity was helper. And their job is to help the commander, is to help the airman, is to help the staff make sense of these things. And so when we were rolling out technology, and weren't giving them enough tools to use the new technology efficiently, they felt great levels of angst.
And so that's the story I tell as I teach the class, I encourage my students to watch the video, to see these emotional responses that folks have when we take away their ability to be helpful. And when we take away their ability to be subject matter experts.
So yes, I definitely teach this.
Siobhan: I think we see evidence of this throughout our whole work careers, because so much of our own identity is wrapped up in what we do for a living. So it absolutely makes sense that you would need to tap into that when you're trying to get people to accept a dramatic change to how they work and how they operate.
I have a question for you. Do you think that change management or making the argument to change things in the Air Force is easier or harder than say in a commercial organization?
Heather: I love that question. Because people ask me that all the time. They say is the Air Force just tell them what to do? I work in the Air Force, and people in the Air Force say just tell them what to do with the Air Force. They're usually civilians that are coming from an outside organization.
And I mean, directed change isn't necessarily sticky change. So yes, we can tell them to line up and march. And it works for things like that. It doesn't work for complex change that is deeply affecting, one your identity, and two the network.
So if you think of how org associations are structure, why they function, they function because a bunch of individuals are all functioning well and working with each other well. So if I go and I tried to change one part of that organization, and it doesn't change well, or it doesn't respond well, I make that node ineffective. Likewise, if I'm sitting next to that node, and that node is ineffective, or they quit their job, because they're that project manager that felt like they were just tossed away, you weaken that whole structure.
Siobhan: I imagine hierarchy is as much a hindrance as an aid here.
Aiming to Make Change Sticky
Heather: Yeah, I mean, when it comes to change, it really does depend on whether that change is sticky. And if you want it to be sticky, it has to be reinforcing at many levels.
So you can't just change one person, you have to change the structure so that everybody is mutually reinforcing each other in the new change.
So you can tap down and put direction on a handful of folks, right, and you can hold your hand on them. We call that choke con, you can actually put your hands on the people, you know, figuratively, and make sure that they're doing that change.
But when you have an organization that's this big, and you have commanders in charge of units across the Air Force, and each commander wants to manage their own organization in their own way, it's not so easy just to say turn around and march, right? It's much more complicated than that. And it's actually the hierarchy that gets in the way. So we believe strongly in delegating responsibility down. And so we try to give our commanders at bases and commanders of units as much authority over how they run their organization so that they can effectively lead when it comes to HR policy, and when it comes to talent management and promotions, and awards, and things like that. That's within the commander's purview.
So let me give an example. Recently, we changed the evaluation system in the Air Force, we used to have a lot of bullets and rankings. And now we've moved into this narrative process. And we had our senior leaders in the Air Force say, we don't want an airman's evaluation to be going through so many hands, to get it approved, right now goes through way too many hands, it only needs to go through four hands, the airman, the rater, the senior rater, and the HR person managing the process.
Well, so we as the Air Force, we tried to implement that policy, it's in the regulation, the regulation says for people, we made the technology safe for people. Well, we blew up the Air Force, right, because commanders don't run their units that way. They have different folks involved in in different processes. And we tried to dictate from the top process that we had, by history and by nature, delegated down to the commander, and they all did it their own way.
So I don't know, we can't just go tell them what to do. It doesn't work that way. Change management itself doesn't work that way. And it definitely doesn't work that way in the Air Force.
Humans Always Human Things Up
Siobhan: Yeah, because people are still going to be people. Humans, humans have a tendency to, to human it up.
Heather: That's right. That's absolutely right.
Siobhan: So to close out Heather, I'm wondering if if you would say there's one particular skill, either a hard skill, a soft skill, and I hate that term, soft skill, but we'll use it for lack of shorthand, that people who are working in change management should develop?
Heather: It's so hard. And it's hard, because depending on who asks me that question, I tend to give different answers.
So if the person that I'm coaching, whether it's a senior leader, or a new change manager, or project manager, is a linear thinker, then I usually encourage them to go pick up a book on systems thinking and start thinking from the perspective of the system itself. If I push here, what happens to the other side of the organization? If I remove this structure. Am I making the whole system less stable? Or do I make it better because it's clear, and I've cleared lanes of communications?
So I usually encourage people to go be a systems thinker. When I find systems thinkers, then I say you should come be a change manager. And I asked them how their empathy and listening skills are. Because it's one thing to be able to see the problem. It's a whole other thing to be able to hear and experience the problem from other people.
So a systems thinking is lets you sort of see the whole thing, and empathy and listening, and see the whole forest, or empathy and listening lets you talk to the individual tree, understand the value of that tree and see how it interrelates to the other trees in the forest.
So I would say there's two skills, systems thinking and empathetic listening.
Siobhan: I love that. I love that you're you're developing the whole person. And you're also identifying where those needs are for those change managers who you're training. Just curious how many change managers have you trained?
Heather: I think somewhere around 100-150. I remember hitting a milestone, I think the milestone was 150.
Siobhan: All right.
Heather: And then we have changed trainers. And now I think I have about 25 of those.
Siobhan: Well, I'm glad that you're developing all of these other change managers to support you in this daunting and impressive work that you're doing. Heather.
If people want to find you online, where's the best way that they can do so?
Heather: Yeah, I'm on I think probably like everyone, I'm on LinkedIn, you can find me there, Heather Knuffke. They pronounce every letter, my last name. And that's the best place to reach me.
Siobhan: Excellent. We will link to that in the notes. I really, really appreciate you coming on and giving us just a small sense of the big, big project that you're working on over at the Air Force and I wish you good luck, Heather.
Heather: Thank you so much, Siobhan. I appreciate it.
Siobhan: If you have a suggestion or a topic for a future conversation, I'm all ears. Please drop me a line at [email protected]. Additionally, if you liked what you heard, post a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you may be listening. Please share Get Reworked with anyone you think might benefit from these types of conversations. Find us at reworked.co. And finally, follow us at Get Reworked on Twitter as well. Thank you again for exploring the revolution of work with me, and I'll see you next time.
