Podcast
In this episode of Get Reworked, we speak with Don Robertson, EVP and CHRO of Northwestern Mutual about his approach to employee experience and how his previous experience on the business side informs how he operates — namely, with a business-first mindset.
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"Many of the things that we have to do require you to put together business cases to look at the financials, to look at budgets, all these things. So if you don't have strong financial skills, if you don't have strong ability to put together business cases, just like you would if you're the investments team and you're putting together a business case to ... buy a building or invest in something — you have to have those kinds of skill sets. I can't just go in there and say, 'Hey, we should invest $10 million in a new HR system, because our people will like it better and will have better engagement," said Don.
"I have to be able to show: if we do this, we'll get more adoption. If we get more adoption, then people leaders will do what we need them to do. And they'll ultimately develop their people better. And therefore you'll have the talent you need. And these are the kinds of investments you need to make. So that you know our engagement goes up or attrition goes down or we get better adoption. And you just start talking about the actual attribution, the things that you benefit from by doing these things. And I can tell you in a zero-sum game and the world we live in with budgets and everything else, you have to be able to make those cases."
Highlights of the conversation include:
- Why data is a modern CHRO's best friend.
- How Northwestern went from employee engagement in the low 40s to over 80%.
- The role HR business partners play in Don's work.
- How Northwestern approaches the employee expectation-business need balancing act.
- The role he sees HR playing with AI adoption.
Plus, hosts Nidhi Madhavan and Siobhan Fagan talk with Don about why he thinks rolling back on EX efforts is a mistake, how he's consciously developing the skills of his potential successor and why he thinks anyone working in HR would benefit by spending time on the business side. Listen in for more.
Have a suggestion, comment or topic for a future episode? Send it to [email protected].
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Show Notes
- Don Robertson on LinkedIn
- Northwestern Mutual website
Episode Transcript
Note: This transcript has been edited for space and clarity
Don Robertson: I think one of the last places from an art standpoint, that companies really need to be focused on, is how do we help employees win while the company is winning?
And let me tell you what I mean by that. Most employees, they do their work for the benefit of the shareholder, the owners, the customers, etc. But I think what needs to happen is there needs to be a little bit of a shift in mindset that yes, you have to deliver for the policy owner, in our case, shareholder, customer, etc., but you also have to make sure you're intentional in the way you design your HR strategy, people strategies, so that the employee wins.
Siobhan Fagan: You just heard from Don Robertson, Don is joining us today to talk about the changing role of the CHRO. And in his own words, it's a really crazy time to be one.
He is the executive vice president and chief human resources officer of Northwestern Mutual. He joined the company back in 2018, to lead employee experience for the over 8,000 employees and over 20,000 field members.
He's been in HR for over 15 years, and he previously launched his career in accounting, finance and sales.
But before we bring them on, let me introduce my new co-host, Nidhi Madhavan. Nidhi, I am so excited to have you here.
Nidhi Madhavan: It's great to be here Siobhan. If you don't already know I am the newest editor over at Reworked.
You've probably seen some of my writing on the website already where I've covered everything from generative AI to Zoom fatigue.
I've also been involved with some of our research work on both employee experience and the digital workplace.
And with that, let's jump into today's conversation. So Siobhan are you ready?
Siobhan: I am so ready.
Nidhi: All right, let's Get Reworked.
From CPA to CHRO
Siobhan: Welcome to the podcast Don.
Don: It's nice to be here. Thanks for having me.
Siobhan: Well, we're really excited to have you here today to talk about the evolving role of CHRO. And just to sort of set the stage you are indeed a CHRO right now, at Northwestern Mutual, you have been there since 2018.
But you've been in HR for over 15 years now. So I was hoping you could just sort of take an easy one, like how is HR changed since you started in this area?
Don: Well, I've actually been in HR even a little longer than that. But the changes that have taken place in HR have been rather interesting to watch unfold. And I think a lot of it's been driven by the macro environment more than even the internal environment, because the role of the CHRO has become so much more important because I think most companies realize that it's all about talent, if you have the best talent, you will generally be the most successful. And if you don't have the best talent, you generally will not be.
And so I think the role of the CHRO has evolved because I really believe it is about the ability to recruit the talent, to develop the talent, to grow the talent. And I think business leaders now understand the role of HR plays in making that happen. We're not just the people sitting in the room talking about people issues, we're actually in the room designing strategies to help make sure you have the talent to achieve the business strategy.
Siobhan: Now you had a kind of unusual path into HR in that you had a sales background, can you talk a little bit about how and why you made that transition?
Don: Sure, I'm actually a CPA. So I spent the first almost 20 years of my career in what I would call finance, general management and sales roles. And so even though I was in business roles, I always had a strong affinity for HR and a strong feeling about the impact that people have on success of businesses.
And so in one of my later roles, before I made the shift into HR, I was actually as you say in a sales capacity, and then the company was at Hewlett Packard at the time, asked me to take on a role kind of leading sales development for the whole enterprise because my team was having a lot of success in a sales capacity. And they want to understand how we could institutionalize that across the company.
And then eventually, the CHRO of HP at the time got wind of what we were doing. And she kind of moved all of the development roles into HR. So I kind of got into HR by accident, even though I'd had HR reporting to me when I was a controller and a CFO and other roles. I'd never actually been an HR person. And so that was something I had to get my head wrapped around. But when I got in, I realized how important business plays to be a successful HR leader and so having that business experience was really critical.
The Role of a Modern CHRO
Nidhi: So how would you describe some of the main duties and responsibilities of a modern CHRO?
Don: Well, the most important thing a CHRO is responsible for is ultimately making sure you have the right people doing the right things with the right attitude at the right cost. So ultimately you're helping the business achieve its strategy via their people.
And so I'm responsible for really all of the talent acquisition to the talent development to the growth, the catalysts for that, as well as ultimately helping make sure people can achieve their career aspirations.
There's a lot of things you thread within that. But at the end of the day, it is really about about your talent management strategies, obviously, you have your entire ecosystem of making sure you have engagement, making sure you have the right connectedness with your employees, you know, when you think about how they're compensated, how they're rewarded, how they're recognized, how you communicate with them. And from an employee standpoint, how you help people, leaders develop and grow so that they ultimately play the role that you need them to play, how your leadership acts, the environment that you surround them with, I have responsibility for all of what we call campus events and experiences. So I have all facilities, the restaurants, we do all the meetings we do externally and internally.
So it's a pretty broad role. But at the end of the day, it really breaks down to one simple thing is just making sure you have the best talent and then to have the best support that they need to be successful.
Nidhi: You define so many different responsibilities, and you've got your hand in so many different elements of human resources and the employee experience. So I'm curious, what would you say today is one of the most challenging duties or responsibilities that you have to take care of?
Don: Well, I think as you think about where we've been over the last five years, particularly in the pandemic, it's really the paradigms have shifted pretty quickly. You know, we've gone from an environment that I think, pre-pandemic, that was very different. I mean, you know, we obviously went through the largest simulation of our ability to work from home in modern history. And so, you know, I think the mental state of your employees that we're companies are kind of thinking and rethinking the way you work, how you work, where you work. And so trying to find the right balance, strike the right balance of that, and dealing with all the macroeconomic challenges that we're dealing with at the same time has been particularly challenging to really make sure you can stay connected to your people that they're doing well, that they're performing, that they understand how much you care about them. And then trying to strike the right balance what the business needs, you know how often you're in a campus, how often you get together.
So I really think it's one of the most challenging things is just try to get that balance right. There are people that really got very comfortable with working from home all the time, and they want to continue to do that. But yet that may not make the most sense for the business. So how do you strike the right balance here? Those are probably the most challenging people elements.
I think, from a business standpoint, one of the most challenging things that we're now dealing with is how do you use data in the right way to make decisions? When you asked earlier about some of the evolution of HR, one of the things that I think is very different today than 20 years ago, when I first got into HR related activities, is how you use data, you know, no longer is it about just familiarity with talent, or just who you know, and how you know, it's what can they do? What skills do they have, so you have to be a lot more, using a lot more data to really help guide your decisions help think about how do you want to set your strategies, understand where your hotspots are.
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And it's a great way to also deal with pushback and emotion that you get because data is data. And it's hard to argue with data.
Employee Experience and Employer Needs: Striking a Balance
Siobhan: I have so many questions that I could follow up there with Don, but I think I'll start first, with the people element side of it. I saw in your bio that you were brought on specifically to focus on employee experience at Northwestern.
And currently we're seeing some of turmoil in workplaces. You know, you said it's this challenge of trying to find the balance between working from home, bringing people in, making employees happy, fulfilling business needs.
I'm curious where Northwestern falls in striking that balance. How are you approaching employee experience right now? And what specifically are you doing to make sure that you're meeting both sides needs?
Don: Great question. And it was one of the fundamental reasons why they went out and recruited me. The company, let me just say, first of all, 166 year old company, incredibly successful, incredibly mission driven, purpose driven, all about relieving anxiety financially, for our policy owners, you know, it's just an amazing company, and had a lot of the raw ingredients in place. And a lot of the things that I ultimately, fundamentally, wanted to drive were already being done, but it wasn't done in an institutional way. So in a lot of ways, what I did when I came on board, and what I'm doing now is helping the company modernize be more sophisticated, taking those elements of things that we were doing, but making it much more what I would call modern and institutional.
So for example, this was a company that in its entire history has only had one unprofitable year has had an amazing history of strength track record of success. And yet the employee engagement at the time was in the low 40s. And I remember when I first got here, I was like, That just doesn't make sense to me. I mean, this is such a great culture. It's such a great place. But one of the reasons why I think that was occurring is a lot of the things that the company had that were really going in its favor, most employees either had taken for granted or their perspective was kind of narrow in the sense that this is the only place they'd been. And they didn't realize how special it was.
So one of the very early things I wanted to really help is I'd say, reinvigorate the employee value proposition and really help people understand what they had, really helped them realize how special this was, get the leaders reenergized, you know, so a lot of what we did early on was just actually spent a ton of time talking to people about the company, giving them perspective, getting leaders excited about that, you know, and then we did a number of other things and nothing overcomplicated, but we started to you know, put in place talent management systems put in place workday, a new system, start to use data to make decisions, start to make everyone feel like they had an opportunity.
If you knew somebody here at the top, you were actually pretty happy with the company. But if you were outside those areas where you didn't maybe have those same relationships, you weren't feeling as good about the company, because you didn't really feel like you had the opportunity. So lots more about trying to really create opportunities for all people, diversity, women, etc. And, you know, we've gone from 40% engagement to over 80%, across every demographic, every gender and each function.
And in fact, we grew our diverse populations dramatically as well, we're 50/50 women now almost, and our diverse populations are significantly higher than they were. So it's just it was a series of a lot of things that we did to really create an ecosystem that reinforces the values and the behaviors and helps people really understand how special this place is. And you got to really make sure that you have your people, leaders and your leadership, reinforcing that through their messaging, through their communications, through the actions that they take. So it was a lot of just a lot of things that we did.
Siobhan: I want to touch on the fact that you are indeed working for an organization that's been around for 166 years. And as we all know, change management can be challenging in any kind of circumstances.
But it sounds like you had certain elements in place already to drive this employee experience. Did you also have the full support of those up top for the vision that you wanted to create?
Don: I would say yes, and no, the CEO, absolutely. And most members of leadership, yes. But many folks had been here all their whole careers and didn't see the need for some of the change.
I'll give you an example. When I got here, I was hearing about how they had this 15-year-plan for diversity. And they were really working hard. And they were really doing a lot of great things. And they didn't see the need to change anything. And I remember I said, well show me the data. And the data showed that there wasn't much progress and success in those areas that the intention was there, but the actions and the specifics that you need to do to really change it.
And so what I would typically do is not get into arguments about people, because it's a very proud company. And they're and they are wildly successful with great traditions. But if you were going to move to the future in a way that you wanted, you were going to have to think and act differently and not just have intent.
And so I don't think anyone didn't have the intent. But what was the really the challenge was to get people to operate and act differently, make it where more people had an opportunity to be successful. And so there was a lot of specific things we did in the action areas. Things like increased the leadership team things like add functions to leadership team that were not previously thought of as important enough functions, spending more time one-on-one and small roundtables with our diverse populations, making it more of a conscious effort to make sure you're slating and your promotions were more in balance and representative of the population and demographics that made sense.
So just a lot of fundamental things, that from an action standpoint, to create the momentum toward these things became norms in what we did, and therefore it kind of took care of itself.
HR as a Business Partner
Nidhi: Another thing that we've started seeing in the few years that's changed, is that there's this increased interest in the role of an HR business partner.
Do you think that this is a sign that organizations in general are willing to finally bring in HR as a partner?
Don: Well, first of all, I think the HR business partner is probably one of the most critical roles in the function, because it's the closest thing that you get to the business where they regularly interact with these people.
So you know, one of the things I did when I came here was really, I would say up-leveled the HR business partner role, and really brought in some high caliber, there was people here that were great, and I absolutely utilize them. But there was also, I brought in three or four people that had worked for me at other companies multiple times, who were very strong in that area.
And I remember one of the early conversations I had with one of my colleagues in SLT, senior leadership team, I said to them, I'm going to give you a really super strong HR business partner, and you're going to really then understand how powerful this function can be. And I did that in two or three of the most critical business areas, and two or three of the most influential members of the leadership team. And to this day, this was almost four years ago. They won't let me touch their HR person because they're like, oh my god, I love this person.
And so I think the HR business partner is so critical, because effectively, they're the heads of HR for the various areas that they support. And they're more strategic, and they can just have such a tremendous influence on what the business leader does. And also for me, they're so critical because it gives me an ability to rapidly deploy concepts and thoughts and ideas through them to the businesses, yes, your centers of expertise, and your functions need to absolutely have best in class kinds of projects and initiatives and programs that they're doing. But none of it matters if your HR business partners don't have strong relationships with a business where they can help influence how the business adopts those things.
And so I think it's a little bit of a chicken and an egg. I think the better your business partners are, the more the business lets them in, the more that business lets them on, the more they realize how valuable they are. And to the point where you're you're not sitting at the table, you're actually helping design the table and the agenda and the objectives.
Because I think business leaders that recognize the value of HR, realize that HR is their partner, you know, your finance partner from an affordability standpoint, your business leader from a strategy standpoint, your HR business partner from a talent growth, and how do you achieve your business strategy in an affordable way through the talent. And that's, I think the HR business partner plays a critical role in that.
Nidhi: Yeah, so it sounds like from your experience, there is a really close relationship then between the HR business partners and the CHRO, right?
Don: Oh, 100%. I mean, in our case, it's centralized. So they direct hard line to me and dotted line to their business. But I'd like to view it as a double hard line. I mean, they're, they're very close to me, I spend an inordinate amount of time with my HR VPs. It also helps shape some of my thinking, too, you know, I do a lot of strategic thinking, the vision and those kinds of things, but they're right there with me, as we work through these things.
In fact, I'm looking at HR over the next three to five years, and I'm looking at, hey, where do we need to take the function? What do we need to be doing, and they're with me designing kind of what the future of our function here at Northwestern Mutual needs to be looking like and needs to be doing. And so it's absolutely critical.
I don't believe you can be a successful, strong CHRO if you haven't played a major senior business partner role. And the reason for that is, I honestly believe that, you know, to be successful as a CHRO, and to be successful as a senior HR business partner, you really need to be able to influence your business leader, develop that strong relationship, develop that finesse, have that business understanding. And it really prepares you for this. Because at the end of the day, if I didn't have the respect from my business leaders, my peers, as somebody that not only knows the HR function, but also really understands the business, really understands what the business is trying to do, what we can do to help make that happen. And I think the HR business partner really helps prepare you for that, yes, you need to have domain expertise, you need to have all of the things that an HR senior person needs to have. But you also have to have a strong business acumen business mind. And really, in many respects, think and talk like a business leader, because business leaders don't talk like HR people, they talk like business people, and the more that you can speak their language, and bringing the things that you're bringing to them, I think the more successful and the more influential and ultimately, the more impact you can have.
Siobhan: Don I'm curious if you think that most people who are, and I know this is a huge generalization, but are most people who are working in HR now up for that challenge? Are they speaking the language of the business? Or do they need to be upskilled themselves to speak this language?
Don: You know, it's easy for me to say, right, I've spent half my career in HR half my career in the business. So it would sound a bit self-promoting to say, yeah, I think every HR leader could benefit from serving a great amount of time in the business.
But I certainly do believe that people that only spend their career in the HR function only and don't have any time in the business, in a key business role, it puts them in a bit of a disadvantage. And we all know what that looks like. I mean, when my folks come and present to me, if they come in here with fancy HR terms to describe stuff, the first thing I'll say to them is, don't do that, you know, that's fine with me, but and so it is really hard to learn how to speak the language of the business if you haven't actually been in the business. And if you've only spent your entire career in an HR role or roles, you will have a tendency just by nature to speak more like an HR person.
And so I'm not saying that they have to have that to be successful, because I know plenty of very successful CHROs who have only spent their time in HR. But I do think you need to have at least some way or ability to get connected to the business so that you learn how the business leaders talk, because I just think it's a pretty big disadvantage if you don't.
One of the biggest challenges HR even has even though we have a seat at the table. Many of the things that we have to do require you to put together business cases to look at the financials, to look at budgets, all these things and if you don't have strong financial skills, if you don't have strong ability to really put together business cases, just like you would, if you're the investments team, and you're putting together a business case, to go do an investment to buy a building or do something, you have to have those kinds of skill sets, I can't just go in there and say, hey, we should invest $10 million in a new HR system, because our people will like it better and will have better engagement.
No, I have to be able to show, well, if we do this, we'll get more adoption. If we get more adoption, then people leaders will do what we need them to do. And they'll ultimately develop their people better. And therefore you'll have the talent you need. And these are the kinds of investments you need to make. So that you know our engagement goes up or attrition goes down or we get better adoption. And you just start talking about the actual attribution things that you benefit from by doing these things. And I can tell you in a zero sum game and the world we live in with budgets and everything else, you have to be able to make those cases.
Blending Art With Science
Siobhan: You bring up an interesting point, because throughout this, you keep mentioning the fact that you are data driven, that you use analytics throughout making all of your decisions that it removes some of the sort of personal impact. Again, I'm going to ask the same question. Do most HR people have the data analytic skills? And should they be developing them ASAP?
Don: Well, first of all, let me just say you have to blend the art with the science, I don't want to give the impression that we don't use the art side, we definitely do. But the science is critical, because it allows you to have what I would call sharper focus on where your issues are.
Let me give you an example. So let's take a hypothetical, Bob, Bob's a guy, we all like, you know, he's somebody who's worked here a long time. Everybody likes him, he's familiar with him. We think Bob can go do that job. Let's give Bob a chance. And we'll promote him, we'll move him over there. Because we know Bob, and we trust Bob and we value Bob, was Bob the right guy for the job? Well, my first question would be well, what are the skill sets required for that job? What are the experiences required? What is Bob Dunn's experience and skill set wise, that would give you an indication that he would be able to be successful doing that.
And so you move away from the anecdotal kind of type of decision, it doesn't mean those things don't matter. But if Bob doesn't have the skill sets, or the experiences or the background to do that, I don't care that he knows the business knows, you knows everybody else, it's probably highly likely that he's going to really struggle in that role.
So it's bringing the people side and the data side together. Do I think most HR people have that? I think they're developing it, I think the function is starting to get more acute. I mean, I think those fundamental basic things like making talent decisions based on experience and background and skill sets and ratings, and I think that's becoming more common, I think, where the data analytics is moving futuristically is more in the next level, the correlations, you know, really understanding, yes, your attrition is this or your engagement is this, but why? What are the factors that lead to that? What are the leading indicators? What are the pieces that you could put together the levers you could pull, you know, that can influence that. And I think, if you haven't really been a data oriented thinker, and using data to make decisions, it's definitely a skill that is not easy to be good at.
So I would say it's probably an area that HR could benefit from growing in a lot, because I can tell you that I rarely get pushback. When I asked for things when I have a good story from an art side, but also the data to back me up.
I was just in a discussion this morning. And I'm trying to get my peers to be supportive of doing an investment in some new digital tools. And they all think it's ultimately be able to create better experience is going to create more adoption, it's going to create more of all the experiential things. But the best way that I got them to be supportive was and if we do this, it'll free my folks up so that I will be able to help you more with some of these business issues and allow the business to scale and other 2,000-3,000 people, I won't have to add the HR people. And I'll probably be able to give you savings of 2 or 3 million a year back from my budget, if we make this investment. That was the kicker, you know, and if you can't put that whole story together, they're not just going to do something just because it feels like the right thing to do.
Nidhi: Well, thank you, Don, I really appreciate you know, you've done a great job explaining some of the current day challenges and responsibilities facing this kind of role.
Another thing we really wanted to talk about was the CHRO of the future. And so what do we have to look forward to or expect moving forward?
And one thing that we've seen that's really interesting playing out, is that there has been this sort of shift in power dynamics in the last few years between the employer and employee. We saw it definitely tipped in favor of the employee for a while, but right now it seems to be a little more in favor of the employer.
So where does that leave us with some of the employee experience benefits that were gained over the last few years and some of the new abilities and advances that employees made in improving their experience and raising their expectations? Are we going to see any of that rolled back?
Don: Well, first of all, I'm not a believer, when I am in the stock market that I try to buy when it's low and sell when it's high. I'm not a believer that you try to guess where the pendulum is going and design your HR policies and thoughts and strategies based on those things. I just think if you do that, I think you get into a very challenging situation. Because at the end of the day, there's always going to be times when it's, you know, an employer has more options, or the employee has more options. And I just tried to focus, I think our strategies on, how do we create the best employee environment that'll be attractive, regardless of what's going on.
So I do think there are companies and you see it with the return to campus right now that companies are seeing that tech people are being laid off. And companies are having challenges, and we're heading to a possible recession. And maybe this is a time when people aren't going to be changing jobs as much. So we can go roll back some of these things that we did during the pandemic. And I just, I don't think that's a recipe for long-term success, I think you have to design your employee strategies that are regardless of the market conditions, and you're in and you can't ignore the market conditions.
So for example, if a company wants to say we're going to have everybody come back five days a week, and the market is not doing that, that would be kind of foolish. So you have to design, you know, obviously, with the market in mind. But, you know, I'll give you an example, one of the thoughts that I have, quite candidly, as we look to the future, I think one of the last places from an art standpoint that companies really need to be focused on, is how do we help employees win, while the company is winning, and let me tell you what I mean by that.
Most employees, whether it's public companies, or whether it's private companies, etc, are they do their work for the benefit of the shareholder, the owners, the customers, etc. But I think what needs to happen is there needs to be a little bit of a shift in mindset, that, yes, you have to deliver for the policy owner, in our case, shareholder, customer, etc. But you also have to make sure you're intentional in your design of the way you design your HR strategy, people strategies, so that the employee wins. And that may sound simple. But if you're really thinking that way, then your entire ecosystem has to be geared towards making sure that people are gaining the experiences they need, that they're getting the growth that they need, so that they can achieve their career aspirations simultaneously, while they're delivering for the policy owners or the shareholders etc.
So that means your managers have to really understand what your people's career aspirations are, they have to be intentional about thinking the skills that are required, they have to think about the projects that they could work on that can help with that while they're delivering. So, you know, an example of that is like, I know, there's some people on my leadership team that want my job someday. So every time I'm giving them feedback, or we're going through an assignment, I'm not just thinking about getting that thing done for the board meeting, I'm also thinking about the skills that they need to be building and working with them to make sure they're getting those while they're doing the work that they're doing. And so maybe I might give them a different assignment because they need to work on that skill set. And somebody else I might give something different. And so it's the intentionality and especially to try to create an entire ecosystem of people that are doing that. So means all your people leaders need to be doing that your people need to know what they want to achieve. Your environment, from a digital standpoint needs to reinforce that.
But I think if you do that, you will be effectively one of the most impactful companies to employees. And therefore I think you'll be a talent magnet, and ultimately, that delivers to your shareholders in a really great way. I find it interesting that on a quarterly basis, companies often talk to the CFOs and CEOs. But nobody ever asks about what your talent strategy is. But yet one of your most important things is your talent strategy in terms of your performance. And I believe in the mid to long-term, the CHR O is going to play a larger role in that because I think that's going to become a part of how companies are evaluated and predicted on their success.
You Cannot Townhall Your Way to Change
Nidhi: I understand the importance of retaining or maintaining the employee experience. When it comes to leadership, though, if you do have an adversarial C-suite, or people who believe that we have to make budget cuts, or we need to tighten up, we are going to sort of take HR or take employee experience and slash those kinds of benefits.
How can CHROs sort of push back on that, because I think it's important right now, because you're definitely seeing this growing cynicism from employees where they truly just don't really believe that their companies are gonna look out for them, especially as they're seeing layoffs happening and other you know, back-to-office policies.
Don: It's a great point. And you know, we're not immune to that. I mean, we're obviously have some areas we want to invest in. And it's not always HR and there's times when I asked to tighten my belt and do some things differently, and I don't think there's any question that stuff's going on.
I think what CHROs have to do is really look at what they're doing and what the impact it's making and focus their energies on those types of things. So there may be some things that you're doing for like, for example, my area I want to invest in some digital portals. So I'm not going into the business for some modernization of some of the functionality of some of the key things that we're doing to enable the things that I was just talking about.
So, but I don't go to my colleagues and say, Hey, give me an extra $3 or $4 million, because I know they don't have that, what I would typically do is go and say, well, these are the three or four things that some other area that I might reduce. So you have to be in a lot more position to be able to self-fund what you're doing so that you may be emphasizing the digital portal this year and maybe not emphasizing DNI as much or maybe not emphasizing talent management as much in one year.
Or, you know, maybe you go to more of a self-serve model and some things so that you can invest here. So I think what HR people have to do is become a little bit more like a finance, business person, an HR person combined, and really be looking at the impact what they're making in the different areas and prioritize. Because you're exactly right. What you don't want to have happen is employees feel like they don't matter.
You know, one of the things you constantly need to be doing is staying in touch with your employees, and understanding what does matter. But you also need to be transparent with your employees and have open communication. Like if we're doing something, for example, where we're making a change where we're investing here, but not investing here, we'll go and have a conversation with them to help them understand why.
Because I find that most people if you give them good background and context of what you're doing, and why they'll generally understand it, and they'll understand the downstream implications of it. But you have to take the time to do that you cannot townhall your way to change, you cannot send out an email, you have to use your leadership teams and really have very intimate kinds of conversations and talk through these things.
An example of that is I spend every week talking to 20/30 managers per session two or three times a week, just to help them understand why we're doing some of the things we're doing. And over a course of a month, I might talk to 150 managers, out of our 1,500 managers, and it gives me a chance to really have a more intimate discussion for helping them understand why we're doing things.
Siobhan: I love that phrase, you cannot townhall your way to change, I think I might have that printed on a t shirt.
It Keeps Coming Back to a Balancing Act Between Employee Sentiment and Company Needs
Siobhan: Don, I'm gonna take advantage of how forthcoming you've been with us to ask you a question, which is what keeps you up at night about your job these days?
Don: Well, I think we've talked about a lot of it, I mean, the probably the biggest thing that keeps me concern is finding the right balance between the employee sentiment and what the company needs to do, whether it's returned to campus, whether it's where we invest, that's probably the biggest challenge that I think about is finding the right landing spot, you know, just like the Federal Reserve is trying to find the right landing spot for inflation. I'm trying to find the right landing spot for some of these key issues that we're dealing with and trying to navigate and architect to get to that. And it's not easy, because you know, you're dealing with 1000s of people with very different thoughts.
So and then it's also trying to keep my peers at the leadership level of my CEO, on balance with that there's a lot of different viewpoints on that there's a lot of different motivations on that, everybody wants the same thing. They want a great environment for employees and everything else. But how you do it can radically be different. So that's probably the biggest thing.
And then probably another thing is just the fact exactly what Nidhi said, is that companies are, you know, it's been five years, we've been investing nonstop for five years, and our employees really driving the employee value proposition. And it's helping people realize that now is not the time to slow that down, you know, now's the time to double down on those things. Because, you know, when you get to mid 80% engagement, and you get to a lot of the positives we have, there's always a tendency to think maybe I can let my foot off the gas a little bit, you know, and I always am very, very careful to let people know that just like popularities, and presidential contests, those things are fragile and can change quickly.
One of the biggest challenges we've had quite candidly is half our company has been here, less than 4 years and half our company has been here from 5 to 25 years. So finding the balance between the new employees that have joined and the people who've been here a long time. It's really it can really be a challenge to find that landing spot.
Nidhi: Thank you, John. We've had a great conversation. I did want to touch on one last topic before we wrap up.
Obviously artificial intelligence huge story of the day my definitely don't want to go down a rabbit hole because obviously that could take us a while.
I do really specifically want to ask you though, when it comes to AI and just its broader sort of infiltration into business. What role do you think HR is going to play in addressing any potential impact to talent pools in the job market?
Don: I can tell you, AI excites me and terrifies me at the same time. I think the implications of it in the positive sense of what it can do for prompts and you know, you think about you know, the average HR person spends most of their time trying to get people leaders and people to do what you want them to do. If you can utilize AI in the digital sense to drive a lot of the, take a lot of that transactional and those prompts and everything away and HR people don't have to be as involved in it, that could have a very powerful effect on not only efficiency, but also just create an ecosystem where you're getting managers and people leaders to do the things you need them to do.
But when I think about it from the sense of what it can do to the jobs, ultimately, any job that is what I would call data oriented, or online submission oriented, or anything that really doesn't require a lot of original thought, you can only imagine the implications and possibilities of what that could do. And you combine that with how companies are constantly looking for more efficiency and more effectiveness. And I just, I think it could have a profound impact on hundreds if not 1,000s, and 10s, of 1,000s of jobs, that may not be in a way that preserves those jobs.
So I think the HR leader, what we have to really do is kind of play a role and not trying to stand in the way of all those things. But just make sure that everyone is thinking about the people implications, the talent implications, the cultural implications of those decisions that as we start to make them.
And the other thing I would say is we probably want to walk before we start running, if not sprinting. And we all know technology has a tendency to, to get out there before people have really thought about how to use it, and the ways that are beneficial. So I'm just a little bit nervous about the impact of that. But I'm excited about it too, because I think it opens up tremendous amount of possibilities.
Siobhan: I think that it's a balancing act for all of us. And we're all going to be working on finding that balance. But I appreciate that you're seeing both, you know, the stand out of the way and at the same time, hey, let's keep aware of these different areas. So thank you, Don, and thank you so much for this whole conversation.
You've been amazingly generous with your experiences and your thoughts. If our audience wants to find out more about you or follow you online, where is the best place that they can find you?
Don: Well, my team does an amazing job keeping my LinkedIn profile up to date with the most current information. So you can just find Don Robertson CHRO Northwestern Mutual online at LinkedIn, we tend to publish a number of different things and constantly are keeping up to date with the current trends. So that's probably the best way to find me.
Siobhan: Excellent. We will definitely link to that in the show notes. Thank you again for joining us.
Don: Well, it's wonderful to be here and thanks for giving me the opportunity to spend time with you.
Nidhi: Great to chat with you Don.
Siobhan: If you have a suggestion or a topic for a future conversation, I'm all ears. Please drop me a line at [email protected]. Additionally, if you liked what you heard, post a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you may be listening. Please share Get Reworked with anyone you think might benefit from these types of conversations. Find us at reworked.co. And finally, follow us at Get Reworked on Twitter as well. Thank you again for exploring the revolution of work with me, and I'll see you next time.
