Get Reworked Podcast: How Companies Can Support Neurodivergent Employees
In this episode of Get Reworked, John Abel, technical director, office of the CTO at Google Cloud discusses what businesses can do to support and help neurodivergent employees flourish — from reducing friction via technology, to increasing leader's listening skills, to asking the right questions, to communicating in multiple ways to reach all employees.
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"Someone said to me the other day, how do I know if I'm doing diversity well as a leader? And I said, the only way I can tell you is from my personal experience. You should feel exhausted. And what I mean by that is, we all are struggling with obtaining the next generation of talent. And for me, the talent starts much younger, well before career. And actually, you've got to make them excited about your industry or your business, before they're well into the employment process. Because inherently, if you don't, you're going to get one type of employee," said John.
Highlights of the conversation include:
- What being a flexible leader means.
- How technology advances have improved daily work for neurodivergent people.
- How leaders can help employees through listening and self discovery.
- Why simplifying, not adding complexity, is the trick to getting things done.
- How employees can help their managers manage them.
Plus, host Siobhan Fagan talks with John about how to help everyone use their full skillset, the connection between neurodiversity and creativity, and why fail fast is an inadequate term. Listen in for more.
Have a suggestion, comment or topic for a future episode? Send it to [email protected].
Tune-in Here
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Show Notes
- John on LinkedIn
- John's article, "The Tools That Help Me Work From Home With Dyslexia"
- Google Launches Career Program for Neurodiverse Talent
Episode Transcript
Note: This transcript has been edited for space and clarity
John Abel: If you're working with a highly diverse team, you have to assume that everybody has got different levels of capability. And they've got different skills, and they come from different places. And when it's neurodiverse, you might not see these because they're technically not visible, like a more physically diverse team.
So what you've got to do is provide the ability for people to show those skills, that's what you hired them for. So working with them, and not against them, is you trying to get someone to mold into what you want, isn't going to get the best thing out of that individual. So for me, being a flexible leader and allowing people to know that they've got a safe environment is super critical.
Siobhan Fagan: That was John Abel speaking about how to lead neurodiverse teams. John is an ambassador for the British Dyslexia Association, and he's also the technical director, office of the CTO at Google Cloud, where he's focused on transformational sustainability solutions and the use of emerging technologies to enable the acceleration of reducing carbon emissions.
He began his tech career nearly 30 years ago working on early AI and distributed ledger technologies. John speaks frequently about his own dyslexia so that he can raise awareness around this topic.
He also is a strong advocate for managing diverse teams in the workplace and the strengths they can bring. So that's why we're bringing him on. Let's Get Reworked!
Welcome to the podcast, John.
John: It's brilliant to be here. Lovely to meet you.
Neurodiversity as a Strength
Siobhan: Well, I am so glad that you joined us today. And I am so glad that you came here today to talk about the topic, which is neurodiversity and technology in the workplace.
This is a topic that you actually came to us with, which I was very excited when I saw this pitch, and I just wanted to just start off, you've been quite vocal about the fact that you have dyslexia, you are an ambassador for the British dyslexic association. So could you talk a little bit about why these conversations are important to have to you.
John: A number of reasons. The first I actually have a teenage daughter that has ADHD, I have dyslexia. And also I work with a lot of people through discussion that sometimes talk about also being neurodiverse and having dyslexia. So I think it's surrounded me for all of my life. And I was very lucky that I found out in a very young age.
Siobhan: How did you become aware that your experience was different from someone who is neurotypical?
John: Well, first, we started very young, and I'm certainly making up for one of my, let's say, younger year issues, which was I didn't speak until I was about five, and I was doing various tests, etc. so and it's quite rare to find it in a young person. It's not always so obvious, but I was found quite a young age. And then through my school life, I found that it really came to the front, especially not in a very positive way.
Siobhan: So clearly, you have overcome this, you are quite successful in your career in technology.
How would you say your experience in the work context is different from someone who is neurotypical?
John: Yeah, I think first of all, overcoming it, I think I work with it. I think that would be the word I would use. I think I work with dyslexia. And I think it's one of my biggest assets. And what I mean by that is, inherently, I'm very compartmentalized. I like things to be in compartments, I always say to people that I coach as well.
I have three lists, the things I love doing, the things I've learned to do, that I don't love doing, and the things that I want to learn to do. And inherently, what I found in the workplace, there are things where, especially around the creativity, and dealing with very complex problems, I found that much easier. And I typically draw towards that.
Siobhan: I appreciate that you corrected me with overcome, because I think that that's often a way that we frame neurodiversity, that it is something that you have to overcome, as opposed to something that is an add on. So thank you for that.
How Technology Advances Remove Friction for All Employees
Siobhan: You have been working in the technology field for almost 30 years ...?
John: Over 30 years.
Siobhan: Oh, wow. OK!
John: I wish it was under 30 years sometimes, but it's over 30 years.
Siobhan: So when when you first started you were working with some early AI and distributed ledger tech, and I'm wondering what appealed to you to get into this field.
John: I'm very inquisitive about technology. I remember back in the '80s, when I first used the first computer, I was always interested that I found logical problem solving much easier to do.
I struggle with written terms and written language. But actually, when it comes to a logic sequence or a logic problem, I really enjoy it because it makes complete sense to me. And I think that's why I probably drew towards technology as a primary focus of life.
Siobhan: And you've mentioned before that technology actually helps you operate in your world. So it's not just that you are working with technology, but that the technology also offers a certain filter through which you can better operate within the work context. Can you elaborate on that?
John: Yeah, I think when I started, early on in my career, the tools that I had were much more, I would say, they weren't helping me, they were probably hindering me.
Now, tools, repair, you know, like example, the way to finish off a sentence, the way that I can have captions when I'm actually on a call. So I don't struggle to remember how to spell a word.
Actually, most of this technology didn't exist even a decade ago. And now it exists. And it allows me to do it without the same barriers. So working with the technology and giving feedback on that terminology is certainly important in my job with inside Google.
Siobhan: Do you think that the onset of that technology has — I know it's hard to overgeneralize, but in general — has made it easier for people who are neurodivergent to operate in the workplace?
John: I think game changing. And I'm serious about it, because I think if you think about, I write emails, I inherently write the word that I think. And it's not necessarily the word that's meant to be written. Without tools, like the grammar checkers and spell checkers, inherently, I would spend a huge amount of time using Google searches to find the word and read the description of the word — is that actually what I mean?
And I inherently don't have to do that as much now. So I have that ability to use those tools to help me remove friction from me doing my job.
Siobhan: And so we've had this great experiment, call it what you will over the last few years of all of us working remotely where we have been highly dependent on tools.
Do you think that overall, that has been helpful for the population in general, but particularly neurodivergent employees, and also potentially for them being able to be hired because the hiring all moved to an online capacity as well?
John: Well I noticed in the last few years, especially with the ability to work from home, etc., has really helped me personally, I know everybody's going through a different experience, and I fully appreciate that.
But what I've found myself is it actually gave everybody the same level. Inherently, I'm sometimes an extrovert, but I've trained to be an extrovert, but actually, myself, I'm an introvert, inherently, what I found in the digital world, is everybody had the same experience, which meant it was easier to engage. The ability to go off camera, the ability to just talk with people in a different way where I wasn't so overpowered, was so strong for me in that period. And I'm glad it's carried on. Not in the same context we've got hybrid, but it has carried on.
The Secret to Leading Successfully? Listen
Siobhan: And you mentioned earlier that you have a diverse team of people who are working around you. So you are clearly, you are leading this team. What sort of practices have you built in or how have your practices changed, to help accommodate everybody's needs?
John: If I said to a leader, like my top tip would be the art of listening is actually the hardest skill to develop as a leader.
And what I mean by that is, you can be a directional leader by providing input and direction to a team, being a listening leader, and also doing self-discovery questions inherently get you more insight they didn't have before.
And what I mean by self discovery is you inherently are asking questions to make the person come up with the answer, you might know the answer. What I find is with very diverse teams that I've led in the past, and hopefully in the future, inherently, that inquisitive nature about them, and the way that they want to work, and the way that they want to engage makes me provide a platform to get the best out of those people for the job that they're doing.
Siobhan: I think that that is key. We've actually all I think, part of the last few years, one of the additional things that we've learned or that's come to the fore over the last few years is the importance of intentionality, and being more deliberate in a lot of our choices. So I think that that reflects that. But you were sort of ahead of the game on that one it sounds like.
Feedback Only Goes So Far. Ask Questions to Help People Learn
John: I'll tell you what I learned early on as a parent, and I think the skills of parent replicate into the workplace, sometimes really well. I mean, skills of life generally replicate into the workplace all the time.
And I remember my daughter who was a javelin thrower, and I watched her coach one day coaching, obviously, being a parent, you want your child to do the best and you're seeing her throw her javelin, and she was loving by notice this coach very rarely said anything, really didn't. And I was thinking give some feedback.
I had a conversation with him after said, why did you really not give a lot of technical input? And he said she's thrown more than I've thrown. She knows what the feeling is. My job of the coach is to ask her questions to tell herself what she was doing right and wrong.
And inherently, I never thought about that before. And I've taken that into the workplace, ask questions to get the expert you've employed to be an expert, who knows the answer to unlock the answer?
Siobhan: Can you share an example of one of those questions, because now I'm curious. And I'm thinking I can also improve my podcast or game with these kinds of questions, purely selfish?
John: Well, let me give you an example. And I'll use my daughter's javelin example. So for her to do what they call a block, which is the form of throwing a leg forward to stop and then to bring the javelin over the top of the head. Inherently, there's technical reasons when it works and doesn't work. Now, what the coach would say to her on the appropriate for, and that's the key that he was watching for something that was good, or something that wasn't so good. He said, How did it feel? And you go, well, sort of like it connected. What do you mean by you connected? Well, I felt my arm pulled through much faster. OK, what do you mean by pulled through much faster, I felt the power. OK, what are you going to do next on, of course, Catherine, who the daughter is, she just immediately knew what it felt like. That's what I mean by self-discovery questions.
Siobhan: And it's reinforcing the positive behavior, because it's making you more aware. Yeah, that absolutely makes sense.
I'm wondering if there are specific areas that you see that organizations are failing through neurodivergent employees.
John: Failing is a strong word, I think what we inherently all have as humans is bias. And inherently the organizations that in my view will be the most successful, have identified that everybody has bias, meaning, you've got to provide techniques and capabilities on how to manage yourself not to be biased.
So let me give you an example. If you're working with a highly diverse team, you have to assume that everybody has got different levels of capability. And they've got different skills, and they come from different places. And when it's neurodiverse, you might not see these, because they're technically not visible, like a more physical diversity.
So what you've got to do is provide the ability for people to show those skills, that's what you hired them for. So working with them, and not against them, if you're trying to get someone to mold into what you want, it isn't going to get the best thing out of that individual. So for me, being a flexible leader and allowing people to know that they've got a safe environment is super critical.
Siobhan: Is part of that also just sort of clearly laying out what the end target is, and then allowing them to find their own path there?
John: Yes, and also the style of communication.
And what I mean by that is, what I've learned over the years is some people like written communication, some like vocal communication, some like drawn communication, drawing on a board, some like picture communication.
And actually, I found that typically, if I really want to get the best out of the team, I've got to be really consistent across multiple forms of communication, to get the team to really lean into it, really want to drive with it. If I use one form of communication, I lose people.
Siobhan: Yeah, it's it makes sense. I mean, nothing is one-size-fits-all as much as t-shirt sellers would like us to believe.
So I'm wondering what other techniques would you recommend for organizations to better support all of their employees and to recognize and bring out the best in each employee?
'Simple Things Make the Biggest Impact'
John: It's simple things that make the biggest impact, not the complex things. I used to think complexity is the answer of success, and actually simplification or simple techniques are the most successful in my career, because they're the easiest to consume.
And actually, what I mean by that is, if you think about the world we live in, today, we're moving into a digital world, the digital world, by default is diverse, because you're not sure who's out there, who's going to use it, and who could use it.
Inherently, if you're in this digital tool world, you want to get the biggest target audience, which I typically call target addressable market.
So you want to use your team that you've hopefully hired that's highly diverse, to think like your target addressable market, and give you all of the ideas. Now that the thing you've got to do as a leader, is, the point I raised at the start about listening, is taking in all of the input, and then sharing back what you've heard. And when you've heard it, and then getting people to resonate with it, and then you can prioritize what to be done.
Learning Opportunities
But don't make the decision so quick, that you lose some key points that other people have. The decision is the easy bit. It's knowing the decision has got the best outcome for you as a business. And that's why breadth and looking at the total target addressable market is so important.
Siobhan: That sounds though as if it's antithetical to a lot of the pressure that we're under now to constantly be pushing forward at increasingly fast speeds. Do you agree with that?
John: Well, you're not looking for deep workshops and multiple pages of reports. And I can go very fast if I need to, it's very easy in the world to be busy. I can be busy every day of the week, but inherently taking out the time, and just having a discussion about something that's important, and allowing the 80/20 rule to occur. So the other person's talking 80%, and you're spending 20%, just literally talking, and all the rest of it, you are noting things you're observing, and then confirming back to the person, what you heard, isn't going to take very long. And it's a lot quicker if you've got smaller teams.
Now one of the questions I might ask, what do you do in a very large organization? Well, the importance is to find people that are willing to resonate what you think is right, and make sure that you're, it's like, if you dropped a pebble in the sea, it makes a small ripple. If I drop lots of pebbles across the sea, I make lots of little ripples, but they all interlink.
So what you want to do in an organizational change is drop little pebbles across a large space and allow them to into waves to occur. Do you see what I mean? So you're not trying to get people to go on one big wave? Because people don't like that.
The Power Is in Making Yourself Vulnerable
Siobhan: Yeah, I'm wondering if as a neurodivergent employee in a company, if you have a manager that is not necessarily open to that, or is not hearing what you're saying, what sort of paths do you have in that case?
John: Do you know that's the most consistent question I get in everybody is that I'm in later career, not early career. So it's easy for me to turn up here and say, hey, be open with your manager about any of your neurodiverse aspects that you would like to discuss. It's easy for me to say that, because it's like, well, when did you raise it? I actually raised it when I was 21. I raised it when I was 21. I remember it, my boss raised it with me. And my boss said to me at the time, he said, look, your reports, I can't read them, I'm being honest, I can't read them. I said, Why are they technically wrong? No, I think they're technically okay. But I have no understanding what you've written. So I'm, of course, logically processing that, as he doesn't understand what I've written, technically, no, no, he didn't understand my written language.
So, back in the day, when I didn't have all the tools and techniques, it was hard for me to hide my dyslexia, you know, really hard. I mean, I use mainframe type screens. You know, I didn't have words, processing type technologies.
But inherently what I found it was it was easier for me to talk about it in the context of how to get the best out of me, not necessarily talking about the negative side of me being dyslexic.
So what I urge people to do, is to discuss openly with your, your manager, and be the coach, don't have to be expecting them to give you the answer, you know yourself the best. So give them coaching on how you best work and how you best, and the deliverables and the outcomes will show that's true or not.
Siobhan: I love that, because it's basically it's acknowledging that the power dynamics are such that making yourself vulnerable is difficult, especially in earlier career. But if you are framing it in this way, where it's like, hey, I'm your employee, and you want to get stuff out of me, the best way is to do this, makes it a much less personal conversation, I think to a certain extent.
John: Yeah. And I think the other thing as well, if you think in the perfect business, there are objectives you have to hit as an individual, your leadership and your managers and you will give you objectives that you've got to hit on a quarterly, monthly yearly basis, inherently, if you can work with your leaders and your manager to say, this is the way I operate, that I can actually answer those objectives. And please give me positive feedback.
Now, the difference with positive feedback isn't saying you're doing a brilliant job, positive feedback is that didn't quite work for us. Can we talk about it? And actually, you're positively changing the next iteration of it. And I think that we inherently like to use quite strong words when things aren't going right. You know, one of the terms we have in the technology industry is fail fast. I don't like that. I was educated by a very well known CFO, a very dear friend of mine said, Look, that's the problem with technology. It's always failing fast. And I went no, no, I don't mean it's failing. I mean, we're trying to learn, he said well come up with a sentence that actually means what you mean.
So I talk about fail fast now, is it learning with a positive outcome, and the positive outcome is I've learned something not to do again. And that's different from me saying failing fast.
Siobhan: No, absolutely. And I think it comes back to your daughter, the javelin thrower, where it's enforcing that sort of 'what did that feel like to do it right?' And potentially, you can also say, you know, this is what it feels like when you're doing it wrong. So the I'd absolutely make sense.
John: And the other point I think was important is no leader is an expert of everything. And we can't expect leaders to be experts of everything. And inherently neurodiversity, you know, that spectrum of what we would call disabilities is so broad. I don't know every of them. And I'm sure I'm making mistakes.
But just having the act of saying, 'How do I support you to get the best against the objectives' is a very simple executive discussion. It's not something where you're saying, I don't know how to do it. As a leader, you're not saying it. So how do I help you to create an environment that you get the best out against our objective? And if they say, well, actually, I work like this, I really enjoy this or I need space in the office where I can just get down and without noise? And is it okay, if I just come in a bit later, because I really struggle in the morning with this. If you still hitting the objectives, if you're smashing the objectives out the park, then why use a leader saying, but that's not the way I work, I want you to conform to the way I work, doesn't make sense.
The Link Between Neurodiversity and Creativity
Siobhan: Yeah. Can you talk a little bit about the link that you see between neurodiversity and creativity?
John: Oh, yeah, if you think about the world, we're in the automation, the way technology is evolving. The one thing I strongly believe in is the human creativity is unique IP of a human. And inherently, what I've found through my career is that the way I can break down big large problems, and then be very creative in answering it is something that I enjoy doing, but I also think that is naturally the way I think is a positive towards that.
And inherently, if you look at the world of entrepreneurs that have things like dyslexia, its high percentage, have neurodiversity as a key asset to them, they may not call it their asset, I call it their asset. And so I think there is something here, but I think it's something that I enjoy doing. And I notice it continuously in a lot of new diverse people, that they are also very creative.
Siobhan: It's interesting, because there's, you know, ongoing recognition that to come up with the best ideas, the best decisions, the best innovations, you need a diversity of ideas from many different areas of diversity. And this just seems to be yet another layer that can be introduced to increase the chances that you are going to be coming up with creative and interesting ideas.
John: Yeah, I think it goes back to a point I raised earlier on if you think about the physical world, if I sell a product, in the high street of my local town, the context of that product is probably known by the individuals in that town, if they're not traveling in from afar, because of the local ecosystem, the way I message it, the way I position it, we are, especially with a large number of people being there for a long time together, there's going to be connection, people say, Oh, have you been to that shop? Oh, it's brilliant that shop is it's amazing, it's run by this person, or everything they sell is a wonderful, it's great service, because everybody in the local ecosystem knows about it.
In the digital world, anybody could come to you from any different group, any different diversity, and you as a digital business want to get those groups involved. So working with a diverse workforce, coming up with ideas, how to be more attractive to those type of different diverse groups, because you have no idea what's out there, is going to give you that more addressable market.
So I think if you're a digital business, or you have a digital-first mindset, understand your user and focusing on the diverse set of users you want will give you new opportunities that you didn't have before in the physical world.
Siobhan: I'm curious, because you know, you have been a developer in your career. And I'm wondering, have you ever created something that you saw somebody out in the world just use in a completely unexpected way?
John: Do you know what I find fascinating, is when I take something I think I've articulated correctly, and I give it to someone that didn't see it the way I saw it and use it.
I went to a school recently, and I was talking about innovation and how to create innovation. And I asked them to do an ideation workshop on a problem statement. So I came up through the random problem statement. They were coming up with ideas, and I thought, How did you even know how to come up with that idea? I can't even mentally understand, but it's brilliant. And that's the magic of diversity.
Siobhan: That's wonderful. So you mentioned that you were just speaking in a school and I was hoping to touch a little bit about some volunteer work that you do. Can you, can you talk about that a little bit?
John: Well, I will always talk about not only neurodiversity, but diversity anyway, and I love speaking.
Someone said to me the other day, how do I know if I'm doing diversity well as a leader? And I said, the only way I can tell you is from my personal experience. You should feel exhausted. And what I mean by that is, we all are struggling with obtaining the next generation of talent. And for me, the talent starts much younger, well before career. And actually, you've got to make them excited about your industry or your business, before they're well into the employment process.
Because inherently, if you don't, you're going to get one type of employee. So I've been spending years working with before career people, even outside of like, the classical university students, or college students, I'm talking about, even at school level, because I want them to get excited about the things that I got excited about, but they may not know about it.
And if they don't get excited about it, I'm also cool with that as well. But I think it's important that if you want to get the next pool of talent, you're going to have to go much earlier in career because they're going to be the people that you want to be looking at your jobs of the future.
Where Companies Can Start
Siobhan: So John, I suspect, you know, better than I, ah, what the next best question I should ask. I'm wondering if there's any topics that I haven't raised that you would like to address on the podcast?
John: The one topic that I think we haven't discussed at the level of detail is required, is where do you start? Where do you actually start?
Let's talk about it in the context of an employee, someone who's an individual contributor, and then talk about it in context, someone who's a manager or a leader.
I think, everybody that I've mentored over the years, and I've mentored hundreds of people, I feel like it's probably 10 to 15 per year, I have conversation, I mean, mentoring. And by the way, mentoring isn't this six-month mentoring, it may just be a conversation.
When I talk about neurodiversity, people say to me, but where do I start? And the starting point is with yourself: Do you feel happy in your current life? Are you hiding something, and that's making you more upset? Is it better just to talk openly and start constructing something that gets you to a better place?
So I always say to people that I've been new in career, or just individual contributor, start focusing on your well-being by being open about what you want and work with your leadership, and take it step by step. As a leader, be an open leader, don't be a closed leader.
I'm well known that when I was in my first what I call senior leadership role, I never sat in a closed office, I didn't want to sit in a closed office. For me closed offices are appropriate for certain conversations. I like sitting in open office. And the reason I did that is I want you to be approachable. And being an approachable leader, and not reacting when you don't like what you see.
And what I mean by that is they're not acting like the way I see, they don't work like the way I work, means that you'll get better out of the team. And when those difficult challenges come, and those difficult discussions come, people be open with you.
Siobhan: I love the 'you don't like what you see,' because when you said it, I was hearing 'you don't understand what you see,' which I think is often the case.
John: Yes.
Siobhan: John, I think you have spoiled me. And I am now going to ask all of my podcast guests to ask their own questions. Because that was a wonderful place to end on. So John, if our audience wants to learn a little bit more about you and the work that you're doing, where are the best places for them to find you?
John: Well, first of all, they can connect with me on LinkedIn, just look up John Abel and Google Cloud in the office of the CTO. The other thing you might want to do, is I wrote an article, is look up "The Tools That Helped Me Work From Home With Dyslexia," I wrote it in November 2020. It tells you the tips and tricks that I have, that I documented during the first lockdowns that we had.
Siobhan:Wonderful, we will definitely link to that I'm sure many people will want to read that.
Well. Thank you again, John, for this wonderful, wonderful conversation.
John: Thank you very much for allowing me to have the time to speak.Siobhan: If you have a suggestion or a topic for a future conversation, I'm all ears. Please drop me a line at [email protected]. Additionally, if you liked what you heard, post a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you may be listening. Please share Get Reworked with anyone you think might benefit from these types of conversations. Find us at reworked.co. And finally, follow us at Get Reworked on Twitter as well. Thank you again for exploring the revolution of work with me, and I'll see you next time.
About the Author
Siobhan is the editor in chief of Reworked, where she leads the site's content strategy, with a focus on the transformation of the workplace. Prior to joining Reworked, Siobhan was managing editor of Reworked's sister site, CMSWire, where she directed day-to-day operations as well as cultivated and built its contributor community.
Connect with Siobhan Fagan:
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