Get Reworked Podcast: What It Takes to Be an Irresistible Organization
That's the question behind Josh Bersin's most recent book, "Irresistible: The 7 Secrets to the World's Most Enduring, Employee Focused Organizations." And what it comes down to is they focus on their employees.
At a time when some companies are rolling back improvements made into employee experience, Bersin joins Get Reworked to explain why an investment in employee experience is an investment in the long-term health and success of an organization.
Listen: Get Reworked Full Episode List
"Investors can sell their stock, they're not that committed to the company, they can leave. Customers can leave too, customers will give you all sorts of input, but they can just buy another product. Employees are deeply committed to your company, because they voted with their lives and their families to work for you. And when they have problems and they speak up, you need to listen to them first, not last, and don't sacrifice the employees on behalf of the customers.
"And that's what the EX thing is all about. It's creating a real focus on what can we do to take this workforce we have and make it really better for them, for our customers, for our product, for our operations, and so forth," said Josh.
Highlights of the conversation include:
- What separates employee-centric organizations from others.
- The qualities that define an irresistible organization.
- Why constant learning in part defines successful organizations.
- How leaders need to change from controllers to coaches.
- Why team-centric work sets thriving companies apart.
Plus, host Siobhan Fagan talks with Josh about a memorable performance review, why becoming an irresistible organization is challenging for leaders and employees alike, and why the long-term success of a company rests on its ability to unleash human potential. Listen in for more.
Have a suggestion, comment or topic for a future episode? Send it to [email protected].
Tune-in Here
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Show Notes
- Josh Bersin's website
- The story behind "Irresistible: The 7 Secrets to the World's Most Enduring, Employee Focused Organizations"
- Josh's Reworked profile page
Episode Transcript
Note: This transcript has been edited for space and clarity
Josh Bersin: Great companies unleash what I call the unquenchable power of the human spirit. We are learning animals, that's what human beings do, we all learn every day of our lives from the minute we're born. And if the company facilitates that, and rewards it, people tend to just go for it.
Siobhan Fagan: So that was Josh Bersin. Josh is a global industry analyst. He's a thought leader, he's an author and he is a household name in the talent management space. He's also the CEO of the Josh Bersin company, the Dean of Josh Bersin Academy, and is the author most recently of the book "Irresistible: The 7 Secrets To The World's Most Enduring, Employee Focused Organizations."
Let's Get Reworked.
Welcome to the podcast Josh.
Josh: Thank you, Siobhan. I'm very excited to be here.
What Does an Employee-Centric Organization Look Like?
Siobhan: Well, I am so happy that you came here today. We have spoken to you before, at Reworked, we are happy to bring you here today to talk about your most recent book, which is "Irresistible: The 7 Secrets To The World's Most Enduring, Employee Focused Organizations."
And I'm gonna start with what seems like a simple question, but I'm really curious about your response. What does an employee-centric organization look like?
Josh: It looks like a really great place to work, where people enjoy their work, they get a lot done, they feel they're contributing to their teammates, and to the company and to their customers and to society.
It's a company that people aspire to work at. It's a company that innovates and pioneers new ideas, because people feel comfortable questioning the way things are to make it better.
It's usually a company that has been around for decades. So it's survived downturns. And the employees know that when things get bad when they pitch in, that the company will take care of them. And that they can take care of the company in exchange.
It's a company that is widely respected by customers and stakeholders, for not just financial results, but for its purpose and leadership in its domain in whatever market it's in. It sets an example for other companies.
And it's also a company where employees can really thrive professionally, by learning new things by growing by taking on new assignments, by perhaps taking a leave and coming back and not feeling like they're being penalized.
And it's a company where leaders are respected. And people want to work in the company because they want to learn about the leadership approach and style and practices of that company, because it's regarded as a place that is led by exceptional leaders.
So all of those things are the sort of the evidence of an irresistible company, where they also, based on the data that I've collected, these are companies that have very high Glassdoor ratings, very high retention rates, they generally are great stocks if they're publicly traded, although not all of them are. And they have very high scores on all the different kinds of ratings like dei diversity ratings, and other types of contests and things like that, to the degree that they participate in them.
So so those are all of the things that we aspire for in these kinds of companies.
Siobhan: I suspected it was going to be a more complicated answer, than ...
Josh: Well, I could get into the book and read you the whole book.
The Only Constant Is Change
Siobhan: So it all sounds great. I mean, sign me up, I would love to work for a company that works in that way. And one thing that you just said, is actually pretty interesting was that it survived for decades.
So a lot of times we are always holding up newer companies, sort of these digital native companies as the harbingers of what's to come or the best behavior, and you're saying no, it's actually these other companies that potentially have learned to remake themselves that are the ones that thrive. Is that the case?
Josh: Yes. In fact, one of the things, the book has a lot of histories to it, and a lot of history behind it, but one of the things I learned early on when I was studying HR and leadership was that virtually anything will work for people, was when the company is growing, when you have a company that's new that has a hot product, and maybe it's the only game in town because they're an innovator. You can kind of do anything and people buy the products and services. You can treat people poorly and the company grows anyway.
So if you're a stock investor, and you're looking for a hot stock, you're gonna buy a company that's growing really fast. But if you're a long term investor, or you're a value investor, you buy a company that can endure, because especially in tech, but it's true in every industry, you know, something like, I don't know, 85% of the companies in the S&P 500 are gone. Within, I think it's 10 or 15 years disappeared, gone, acquired or went out of business.
So what the book is about, and what I look for in the in the research and studied, and all the companies I talked to, is what puts you in a position as an organization to survive the inevitable bad things that are going to happen. No company is ever perfect. There's an economic cycle, there's a competitor, there's a bad product cycle, there's some sort of employee theft, or something like that happens or a big fire or whatever it may be, how well does the company respond and react to that, because business is a very, very dynamic enterprise.
I've run two companies and worked in five or six others. And the only thing that's common is that everything's changing all the time, the customers are changing the markets changing the technology's changing, the marketplace, the economy. And so I don't think a company that just grows fast, is irresistible in my model. I mean, it may turn out to be over time. But it has to be forged with some adversity to really embrace the principles that I talked about in the book.
And so, you know, I think if people read the book, they'll basically be future-proofing their company to some degree.
Siobhan: So in the book, you lay out seven principles, as you mentioned, that make an organization irresistible. And that helps them survive the bad things, as you say, and you share examples throughout. So there's companies that are actually operating this way that are exemplifying each area.
But a lot of the practices go against what we would think of as work as usual, it's definitely not common. So is there one area that you would point to that needs to change to first start building towards being an irresistible organization?
Josh: Well, it's hard to say one, there are seven. I mean, I think the fundamental the first chapter is, in some sense, the fundamental of the issue, which is moving from a hierarchy to a network or moving away from the hierarchical model of work to the team-centric work. And so let me talk about that for a minute. Because that I think, defines what's been going on.
The reason businesses exist, is that a collection of human beings can get more work done per hour than a bunch of individual human beings. And so if people come together, and they're organized correctly, the financial and outcomes will be higher than if all these people try to do the same thing on their own. And that's reason companies were formed. And so the question is, how do you organize them, and pay them and reward them and manage them. So that this collection of people is outperforming the individuals.
Well, most of the models for doing that were based on the industrial age, where we had managers telling people what to do, and workers doing what they were told. And the workers were replaceable parts, they were fungible. So we had what we call functional hierarchies. We had the sales department, the marketing department, the finance department, HR department, whatever. And you took one of these jobs. And I did this at IBM in 1980s, and you worked your way into this job. And if you did a good job and hung around three, four or five years into the future, maybe you'd get a promotion. And you know, you'd go up this ladder, you get this high, you know, the Peter Principle. And then you know, somewhere around the age of 55 or 60, or 65, you'd retire. And that was the way the company was organized. And all of the reward systems and management tools and performance management and training and everything was oriented towards that, because the way businesses grew was through industrial scale, let's make more and more and more of these products for less and less and less and less money, and we'll be more and more profitable over time.
Well, what happened, you know, around the 2000s or so, maybe a little bit earlier, because this happened, IBM when I was there, is everything got messed up. And all of a sudden, market share and brand did not protect your business anymore, because an innovator could come up with something that was 10 times better than your thing. And it didn't matter that nobody had heard of them. The customers just bought it because they could use the internet to reach your customers or email them or communicate to them. Whereas in the past, the customers were somewhat dependent on the companies they were buying from.
And so there was this huge disruption during the early days of the digital age where all of the incumbent companies, like GE and General Motors and and even IBM, and you know just about everybody, Dow Chemical, all the companies that were in the Fortune 50, Fortune 100, suddenly were getting attacked by competitors all over the place that had better technology or better ideas or better ways to go to market. And they said to themselves, you know, this hierarchy is just getting in our way, we can't move it fast enough. In fact, that's what Jack Welch tried to do at GE, basically, unsuccessfully, as we now know.
And we learned that actually, human beings are not replaceable parts. They don't just do what they're told. They have creativity and energy and innovation and good ideas. And every individual person in the company, if you can figure out how to unleash them, can figure out something cool and new, to build and sell and develop, that will beat that competition that's coming out of nowhere. But you have to set it up that way.
And so the team-centric approach to business has now become the new paradigm of running a company. Consumer packaged goods, companies are all organized this way. Professional services companies are organized this way. I was talking to Deutsche Telekom last week, they're now setting themselves up to operate this way. All of the radio and music companies are operating this way, creative services companies operate this way. Oil companies don't, electric utilities don't, but that's the fundamental thing that happens.
And then of course, once you do that, everything else has to change how you pay people, what their careers look like, who you hire, we don't have this pre-hired retire world anymore, either. Because when I got out of college and '78, you look for a great company, you work there, and then you retired. Well, not only does the company not last that long, but people live longer people work into their 70s or 80s. So they want to jump around and do different things.
And so, you know, the fundamental thing that the book is about is, what are the management practices that facilitate growth and success in this world where the hierarchy kind of isn't that important anymore, it's a big network of people. And it's not simple. I mean, I would say that the seven things in the book, they are easy to write or read about, but to do they're not. And that's what the book is about is showing you how complex they all are. But, you know, maybe so on that that's maybe one big idea that I think summarizes what's changed.
Changing the Power Dynamics From the Inside
Siobhan: One of the things that struck me when I was reading the book is about how much of it is about the changing power dynamics inside the organization and how it fundamentally rethinks the interplay between employers and employees, between employees themselves, and that you posit that they should be giving each other proactive feedback inside their teams.
So I'm wondering if there is a specific management practice that you would suggest to somebody who's interested in exploring this area, what would that be?
Josh: The biggest thing that's different about an irresistible organization than a traditional unirresistible organization, I don't know what to call them, is that in a great company, every individual at every level, has the opportunity to add value in their own unique way. And that is a very bizarre idea, that we're going to let everybody in the company add value in the way that's best for them. And we're going to move them into a job that takes advantage of their skills. And we're going to try to get rid of the nonessential work so they can thrive and add more value.
That means that managers are not controllers, or directors of people. They are enablers, they are coaches, they are facilitators, they are energy creators. And so, the world of management today, if you look at Microsoft, if you look at really high-performing companies, leaders are leading through their influence. They're leading through their energy and inspiration. They help people focus. They tell people what's important and what's not important. They don't tell people what to do all day.
In fact, one of the companies I talk about in there is W. L. Gore. W. L. Gore is a very, very interesting chemical company. And one of the leaders there told me many years ago, at W. L. Gore managers manage projects, people manage themselves. Now think about that. That's a wild idea. People manage themselves. Yeah, the people at W. L. Gore and they're pretty advanced work on the projects that they think they're the best suited for, that they have the right skills for. And the leaders lead projects, not people. And then when somebody is ready for a promotion, or a raise, or an interview review, they have a career advisor or a coach who does that, not necessarily the team leader or the project leader. And that's how Spotify works. That's how Deloitte works. That's how IBM works. That's becoming a new paradigm.
So I think it's leading by influences leading through energy. It's knowing the business well. Another fallacy in the old industrial model, one of the fallacies that I didn't understand in my early days, was this idea that we can create general managers, by rotating people all over the company all the time, the old GE model with Crotonville and all that, every year or two, we move you to a new position. And pretty soon, you're so smart, you can be the CEO.
Well, what most companies have found is that is not the right way to build leadership. Leaders are deep, deep, deep experts in the business that they're in. And they they know it well. So they serve as advisors, they're respected, they're trusted by other people. This idea that a general manager can manage anything. That's very, not true. I mean, it's unusual that one leader can jump around the company and manage anything that the company needs. It's very unusual that that happens. When it does, of course, those people reach very high levels. But so those are the things that I think are really important today.
The other thing, I'll just add one more thing, based on the pandemic and what's been going on the last three years, the other dimension of leadership now, is what we call human-centered leadership, thinking about well being thinking about productivity, thinking about empathy, flexibility, listening to people, being a good human being being like a parent. And understanding how difficult the job may be for the people around you is another part of leadership today that, you know, probably has always been there. But it's become very important in the economy we're in right now.
Siobhan: One of the things that strikes me listening to you speak is we're talking about how challenging it is for leaders to adjust to this style of leadership. And to turn as one of your principal says, from not a boss, but to a coach.
But I imagine it's hard as well, for the people who are actually employed in the organization. Is that the case? Did you see that in your studies?
Josh: Absolutely. It's actually very different to work in a highly-empowered organization than a very hierarchical organization. And I think for those of us that have grown up in a hierarchy, which I did, it's a shock. And what happened in my career as I moved to smaller companies as I got older, and eventually ended up in Deloitte at the end of all that.
Every time I took a job in a smaller company, where I had more flexibility and more autonomy, I was frightened, I wasn't sure if I knew what to do. I wasn't sure if I was going to succeed. And I remember having fearful days in every new job, as I was taking on more and more vagary in my work, but it worked out fine for me. And if you create a culture of empowering people, people tend to do what they want to do, and they tend to do it well, as long as the jobs and roles are clear, and the goals are clear, and the managers are there to help. So there is a bit of a psychological change.
The second thing that's different in an irresistible organization, is everyone is expected to grow all the time. And so if you're the type of person that's maybe insecure or unsure of yourself, and you don't think you could learn how to do something new, you got to get over that, because you're going to be asked to do something new, may not be a promotion, or maybe a horizontal move, but you're going to be expected to pick up something new all the time. And my experience with people that I know and everybody I've ever interviewed, is that great companies unleash what I call the unquenchable power of the human spirit. We are learning animals, that's what human beings do, we all learn every day of our lives from the minute we're born. And if the company facilitates that, and rewards it, people tend to just go for it.
But like I said, there is a little shock value, if you went from, you know, a very, very tightly managed Elon Musk type experience. We could talk about him later, you know, to a highly-empowered company, you know, you may be a little bit in shock.
A Memorable Performance Review
Siobhan: Yeah, yeah, I could see that. It's funny because you, you do have a moment that you share in the book where you're talking about some of the practices that really just do not help lead people to do their best performance. And one of the ones that you call out and I'm thinking we're recording this at the end of the year, tis the season for the annual performance review. And you were talking about how unsuccessful most of them are.
And you said that you probably sat through 40 or more of these uncomfortable meetings, but you can only remember one that gave you inspiration and the help to do better. And I was hoping, could you share what set that one apart?
Josh: Okay, so when I was a young guy, I don't know I was in my late 20s or something, I was at IBM. I was just very green under the collar, whatever they call expression. And I was on the sales team. I was a systems engineer and we were selling this big mainframe system to this big organization. And I was responsible for pulling together the proposals, like a 200 page proposal, all sorts of technical doc permutation and pricing and stuff, and we didn't have PCs. So there was all sorts of mainframe software involved in just writing the proposal.
Learning Opportunities
And any way we print it all out. We get in the car, we drive over to the customer's location, we print out like 20 copies of this thing. We give it with them. We're very excited. We're very proud, we go home, we're back in the office, my boss reads the proposal and he goes, holy crap, there's a price mistake in here. We mispriced this, and he looks at me. And I can tell he's just furious. You know, I'm like the junior guy. I'm kind of like the gopher here.
So we redo the whole thing, we hightail it in the car, we go driving back over there, and we say sorry, guys, they were We were good friends with the customer. We said, Sorry, guys, you got to throw that away, there was a typo, the pricing is wrong, use this new version. So anyway, so that's all over I go home feeling, you know, like, just terrible comes the end of the year. And this was a great guy, he was a very traditional old school IBM manager, but he was very empowering and very growth oriented. And he gives me the performance appraisal at the end of the year. And at the bottom of the performance appraisal, you know, he rates me like a three or something or two, or I wasn't a one, that was for sure. I was basically in the middle. And he goes, your attention to detail will make or break your career. So I'm writing that in here is that you may think it's okay to be in a hurry and get it done and make a mistake. But that will hold you back. And I want you to be successful. So I'm going to write this down in your performance appraisal, and we're going to make a big deal about it. Because I don't want you to forget it.
And ever since in my entire life, I have always been the one who rereads and rereads and rereads things. I never forgot that lesson. So I thank him for that to this day. And yeah, it was painful. But I didn't disagree with the comment or the rating. I would say the rest of them were kind of, you know, just an exercise in just doing the thing and not being happy with the result and then just moving on.
Siobhan: So do you think that it was in that case, the specificity, and also the fact that it was pointing out the end result of what will happen if this behavior continues?
Josh: He was developing me he was trying to teach me something, he was trying to teach me one really important thing, not evaluate me, he wasn't trying to rate me, he did rate me. But that was really a small piece of it.
It was really about delivering the message that this is going to hold you back in your career, that kind of a comment you don't forget.
And I admired him and I respected him. And he was a caring person. So I didn't feel that he was coming down too hard on me.
But anyway, you know, here I am, like 30 or 40 years later, I still remember that.
A Diagnostic Tool to Identify Organizational Weaknesses
Siobhan: So where is the best place for a company to start? I mean, I'm gonna go through, I'll just read the seven principles really fast: It's teams, not hierarchy; work, not jobs; coach, not boss; culture, not rules; growth, not promotion; purpose, not profits; employee experience, not output.
But you also have some other things that need to be in place such as trust and social cohesion and fairness. So where is the best place for an organization to start that is trying to turn itself around?
Josh: Well the way companies are using the book, because we're selling on a lot of people are using the book for a management team meetings.
I think if you read the book, and just kind of absorb the seven ideas, then you can go back to your team, your leadership team, your management team, wherever you work. And you can say, which of these seven things are we really suffering from. And I think that's a valuable experience to have that conversation with your team.
It isn't intended to be a recipe book, step one, step two, step three, step four, because each of these seven things are highly interconnected to other things. And what you'll find is that they kind of fall into categories. One is, you know, management and management culture, and every now and then companies just wake up one day, and they say, you know, our management is just bad, we got to fix it, we got to build a new model, we got to do different kinds of development, and several of them fall into that. That is usually one way. But that may not be the issue.
A second area that comes up in a lot of companies is growth, personal growth, or the company's doing reasonably well, but we're behind in our technology, we just got crushed by a competitor. We don't know how to do this, and that we've got all these products that are too old. So there's the employee growth part of it.
A third part of the problem statement, when you decide what to do is we got high turnover we got nobody wants to come work for us. Our employees are kind of unhappy, their productivity is low. So I think you have a conversation about what problem you want to solve. And then you start looking at the seven things and say, where do we want to start?
And the way I wrote the book is at the end of each chapter, there's a section called how to get started and how to get it right that has some very specific questions you can ask in a meeting. And then of course, if you work in a bigger company and you want to do a kind of a benchmarking project, we have a big organizational assessment that companies can take to learn from your employees, where the weak points are. And that's not really in the book, that's kind of a separate thing. But that's the best way to do it.
And then I had a lot of companies come back to me and say, you know, we want to focus on purpose, or we want to focus on trust, or we want to focus on growth, and then come to that conclusion based on their own team.
Siobhan: So they're using it as a diagnostic that makes sense.
Setting the Employee Experience Bar
Siobhan: One of the things that I do want to pick up on is the fact that in your actual book title, it talks about how these organizations are enduring. And you said at the beginning that they have survived for decades. But one of the ideas in the book, to me, strikes me as something newer, which is this discussion of employee experience.
Is it just that we have only now called it employee experience? And these other organizations just sort of inherently understood it? Or what would you say there?
Josh: Well, the reason that phrase is in there is because that buzzword has become so big. Well, you go back to the very beginning of this industrial age thing, what we used to think of employee experience was, you're not going to get injured, you're not going to get hurt, and the work isn't going to be so hard that you break your back. So if we can just prevent the work from killing you, we're done.
Siobhan: Yeah, set the bar real high there.
Josh: Yeah. And then, of course, you know, Carl Jung and other people came along said, no, there's a few other things that are important, like maybe happiness, maybe conductivity, maybe connection, maybe growth, maybe relationship with your manager, and so forth. And then there was all this psychological stuff in the 1970s and 1980s, that got added to that.
But then the world got more complicated. And we ended up with people working in home and people working in the plane and pandemic. And where we landed today, where the book comes out is, no employee can produce effectively for your company, if they don't have a productive experience in their job, where they're well-trained, well-supported, they have enough time to do the job, they're rested, they're healthy, they feel safe and they have somebody to help them. And those things are what the employee experience is all about.
And we actually have an employee experience, diagnostic that I talked about earlier, that lists a whole bunch of things like that the book goes through a lot of the high-level things. And that is not a problem of HR and benefits. This is a problem of design, designing the company in the jobs, so that the employees have good jobs, you know, the Amazon drivers who deliver everything we buy these days, those trucks, the new trucks they're getting from Rivian, which I happen to know a lot about, are specially designed to be hyperproductive, hypersafe, hypercomfortable for these guys. So they don't have to kill themselves running around, driving around as fast as they can baying into people to try to get stuff delivered on time.
And then that goes for every single job, customer service, sales, manufacturing, engineering. So EX is, you know, a fundamental design paradigm. And I think where this leads to leadership, is, I believe, that great companies consider their employees as their most important stakeholders. Because, you know, everybody thinks that, you know, the stakeholders are the investors and the Old Milton Friedman thing.
Well, in reality, investors can sell their stock, they're not that committed to the company, they can leave, customers can leave too, customers will give you all sorts of input, but they can just buy another product. Employees are deeply committed to your company, because they voted with their lives and their families to work for you. And when they have problems and they speak up, you need to listen to them first, not last, and don't sacrifice the employees on behalf of the customers.
And that's what the EX thing is all about. It's creating a real focus on what can we do to take this workforce we have and make it really better for them, for our customers, for our product, for our operations, and so forth. So that's sort of the big story, in my opinion.
Do Leaders Really Want to Change?
Siobhan: So I know that we're kind of coming to the end here, Josh, and I want to get your perspective on the last few years because the last few years sort of highlighted a lot of fundamental issues that were already existing in organizations.
And a lot of people are seeing this as an opportunity to change into these irresistible organizations, to change for the better, and to give employees more flexibility to give them more empowerment, etc.
Do you think most leaders are equipped to make this kind of change or interested in making this kind of change?
Josh: Well, it's hard to say most, I'll tell you what the statistics show. If you look at Glassdoor, and a lot of the assessments we do through surveys, there tends to be a bell curve of companies in our industry. So you pick whatever industry you like. And you find that 10% or 15% of them, are exceptionally well-managed. They're just really, really hard working leadership teams that are taking advantage of every possible opportunity to make the company better and take care of the employees.
Then there's a group of companies that are kind of trying to get there, but they don't know how yet. And then there's a good 30% - 40% of companies that just aren't paying attention, and maybe they don't care.
Now, I do think that the pandemic pretty much taught everybody in almost every management job I know of, and I think Elon Musk is sort of a weird exception to all this, by the way, but that if you don't take care of the employees, you don't have a company at all. And I've talked to a lot of senior execs that know this. And they are surprised sometimes that they have to do this.
I had a meeting maybe three or four months ago with a very big company, senior leadership team, they were actually a digital services business within this bigger company, their business was growing at 70% per year, the head of the general manager of the business said to me, we are all exhausted, we're all burned out, our turnover is exceptionally high, we can't get people to come work for us. And I said, Well, that's weird. Isn't everybody happy? Because your business is growing so much? And he goes, No, because the boss said we've got to grow at twice the rate next year. And I'm thinking, why? You know, what's the point, you're gonna break the whole place.
So, I won't mention the name of the company. And I kind of know what was going on there. Some leaders don't get this. But I think it's the minority. And I think there's a really good philosophical agreement that senior leaders have to really care about their people in order to be in business right now. Now, coming out of the pandemic with a potentially a business slowdown, it's gonna get a little bit different. But I think it's a pretty well established topic in great companies. And, you know, I don't need to reinforce it too much. But like I said, there's probably 25% to 30% of companies in most industries that aren't paying attention.
Siobhan: Well, Josh, I want to thank you for joining me on the podcast. Again, the book is "Irresistible: The 7 Secrets To The World's Most Enduring, Employee Focused Organizations."
If our listeners want to learn a little bit more about the book, about your work, where is the best place for them to find you?
Josh: I am at joshbersin.com, one word, and there is a link to another little website about the book there, and all sorts of articles, there are 600 articles there to read that are solely about sort of my life as an analyst contributing to that book. So lots and lots of stuff there.
Siobhan: You are quite prolific Josh, I will attest. Well, thank you so much for joining us, and I look forward to your next book.
Josh: Thank you.
Siobhan: If you have a suggestion or a topic for a future conversation, I'm all ears. Please drop me a line at [email protected]. Additionally, if you liked what you heard, post a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you may be listening. Please share Get Reworked with anyone you think might benefit from these types of conversations. Find us at reworked.co. And finally, follow us at Get Reworked on Twitter as well. Thank you again for exploring the revolution of work with me, and I'll see you next time.
About the Author
Siobhan is the editor in chief of Reworked, where she leads the site's content strategy, with a focus on the transformation of the workplace. Prior to joining Reworked, Siobhan was managing editor of Reworked's sister site, CMSWire, where she directed day-to-day operations as well as cultivated and built its contributor community.
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